Author Topic: Core Themes of Discordia  (Read 41311 times)

Cramulus

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 21670
    • View Profile
    • Cramul.us
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2007, 07:01:53 am »
EDITED OUT NM
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 07:09:54 am by Professor Cramulus »

Forteetu

  • TITS
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
    • View Profile
    • 42.dia.net.au - Forteetu
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2007, 07:13:18 am »
EDITED OUT NM

awww ... quit it, I'm gettin' all moist over here
WOMP'd


Episkopos of the Discordian Society

http://42.dia.net.au - Forteetu

Forteetu

  • TITS
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
    • View Profile
    • 42.dia.net.au - Forteetu
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2007, 07:19:35 am »

RAW said some very far-fetched and untrue things about quantum physics, so i advise you to take this as well with a grain of salt.

for example, Quantum Mechanica basically created a very new branch of mathematics, a new language in a way, and it is still fucking hard to discuss, even in the language specifically designed for it.

I hear you. Simply put tho, this is an example of how changing language can change perspective. Now its totally up to you to find what is effective or useful in any of that. But just a realisation that our language is another tool to use in the kit. From my experience, I say it appears to be a quite powerful one.
WOMP'd


Episkopos of the Discordian Society

http://42.dia.net.au - Forteetu

Triple Zero

  • DO NOT ABUSE EXCEPT FOR URGENT FURNITURE MOVING EMERGENCIES
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 25403
  • Horrible and Sexy Queen of Cheese
    • View Profile
    • Random BIP
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2007, 03:52:51 pm »
yeah i can get behind the idea, i in fact heard about *actual* linguistic/anthopologic scientific evidence to support this fact.
it's just a shame that, imo, RAW has here and there taken a bit of an artistic license with some of his examples/empirical evidence. now of his more "serious" books, the non-fiction, i have only read "prometheus rising". on the one hand he seems to take the topic he's discussing very seriously and wants to present it as proven fact (in way, at least), but on the other hand he provides no references whatsoever.

the actual evidence i learned about, in my one trimester studying AI, i followed a course about linguistics and they told of some sort of tribe that didn't have words for "left" "right" "behind" "front", etc, but their words for pointing out a direction were more "absolute", like "north", "south" and so on.
first they were interviewed to give driving directions in their native language, and indeed, they only used absolutes to point out the directions, which gave some confusion with english speaking people sometimes.
but the most interesting experiment was, they were in a laboratory that had a table to one wall, and another table to a wall at 90 degrees of the first.
now they had two test groups, one group of that tribe and another of (i think) english-speakers. they placed an L-shaped object on one of the tables and asked the test-subjects to place the object in the same orientation on the other table.
and lo, most english speakers rotated the object 90 degrees, to make sure it had the same relative orientation to the wall the table was placed on, while the native/tribal people simply translated the object so that it would retain the same absolute orientation.

ok it's not as cool as the "wow these indians would be amazing quantum physicists" story, but at least it clearly demonstrates that, in a limited sense, your perception of reality is indeed formed partially by language.

btw i can't immediately provide you with a reference for this story either (though i saw the experiment happen on video), so my point is almost just as weak as RAWs :) i could probably dig it up though (with enough effort), and it comes from a reputable scientific source.
Ex-Soviet Bloc Sexual Attack Swede of Tomorrow™
e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

INFORMATION SO POWERFUL, YOU ACTUALLY NEED LESS.

Forteetu

  • TITS
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
    • View Profile
    • 42.dia.net.au - Forteetu
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2007, 04:03:28 pm »
ok it's not as cool as the "wow these indians would be amazing quantum physicists" story, but at least it clearly demonstrates that, in a limited sense, your perception of reality is indeed formed partially by language.

btw i can't immediately provide you with a reference for this story either (though i saw the experiment happen on video), so my point is almost just as weak as RAWs :) i could probably dig it up though (with enough effort), and it comes from a reputable scientific source.

I wouldn't worry about digging it up. I mean is just a fact after all. The only *real* references I tend to count on are those of personal experience anyway. I think in the long run tho, we're on the same page.

WOMP'd


Episkopos of the Discordian Society

http://42.dia.net.au - Forteetu

Iron Sulfide

  • Gaping Fistula
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 2133
  • Ablata At Alba
    • View Profile
    • High Viscosity Skeet Shoot
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2007, 06:46:29 pm »
can you alter the manner in which you make alterations?

i have no answers.
As for the 6th, can the programmer be re-programmed? Of this, I do have first hand experience over the past 10 years or so of personal development. To this I say HELL YES! and I would refer you to RAW's discourse on "Who is the Master?" also available on YouTUBE in a clip (blogged on my MySpace for easy reference). Self-programming is a recursive function by definition.



it wasn't "can you re/program yourself."

self help books are evident of that. yoga is evident of that.

waking up at a time you are unused to over the period of a few
weeks for a new job/school/some forgein agent are examples of self-reprogramming.

my problem (and RAW adresses this in the first 4 circuits in Prometheus Rising)
is that the circuits are NOT SEPERATE. they are cummulative.

by his reasoning (and i don't think it is invalid), sociosexual moral making circuit (IV) is impinged upon by the semantic circuit's (III) dominant symbol set and intellectual taboo,
which is inturn tinged with the Territorial (II) programming of early childhood with overall automatic responses dictated by one's survival imprint (I).

i.e. someone with a fucking Swote set-up for their Semantic Self that writes books and
bnlah blhah bvlat but has a "negetive" survival security imprint will nigh invariably back down if simply badgered enough.

but then he ignores this from the 5th circuit on. neurosomatic bliss "overrides" the
archaic tetragram, self-programming allows you to bliss-out like a push-button (as with anything non-bliss as well), neurogenetic allows you to think of carl jung's lifework as nothing more than footnotes...

but it's cumulateive. even if one "reformats" themselse.

so my open-ended, socratic query is "in what ways can you alter the ways in which you alter things?"    or to use RAW's joke, "how do you count the donkey that you are riding on?"
Ya' stupid Yank.

Forteetu

  • TITS
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
    • View Profile
    • 42.dia.net.au - Forteetu
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2007, 07:49:16 pm »

it wasn't "can you re/program yourself."

self help books are evident of that. yoga is evident of that.

waking up at a time you are unused to over the period of a few
weeks for a new job/school/some forgein agent are examples of self-reprogramming.

my problem (and RAW adresses this in the first 4 circuits in Prometheus Rising)
is that the circuits are NOT SEPERATE. they are cummulative.

by his reasoning (and i don't think it is invalid), sociosexual moral making circuit (IV) is impinged upon by the semantic circuit's (III) dominant symbol set and intellectual taboo,
which is inturn tinged with the Territorial (II) programming of early childhood with overall automatic responses dictated by one's survival imprint (I).

i.e. someone with a fucking Swote set-up for their Semantic Self that writes books and
bnlah blhah bvlat but has a "negetive" survival security imprint will nigh invariably back down if simply badgered enough.

Nothing I would disagree with here

Quote
but then he ignores this from the 5th circuit on. neurosomatic bliss "overrides" the
archaic tetragram, self-programming allows you to bliss-out like a push-button (as with anything non-bliss as well), neurogenetic allows you to think of carl jung's lifework as nothing more than footnotes...

but it's cumulateive. even if one "reformats" themselse.

I tend to think of the entire stack of 8 circuits as a cumaltive model, with a correspondancy between 1-4 and 5-8. Whether this is a traditional way of looking at the model I'm not sure. It's the one that seems to work for me tho.

Quote
so my open-ended, socratic query is "in what ways can you alter the ways in which you alter things?"    or to use RAW's joke, "how do you count the donkey that you are riding on?"

Maybe I can express it this way ....
A lot of this happened to me before I became aware of what the 8 circuit model is, but I think its easier to relate to it that way now. Before I was aware of anything other than a drug-induced, escape mechanism form of 5th circuit experience, I was completely lost and unware in the gameplay of the first 4 circuits. I carried a lot of ill baggage in those circuits as well. Eventually, awakening to a more "positive" 5th circuit experience, I was able to begin to see the first 4 circuits for the game they were and take them more lightly.

However, I was still stuck to the placement setting on the front/back , left/right , up/down axis of these circuits which was dictated by the nurture/nature and specific circumstances of my upbringing. In essence, I was now learning new coping mechanisms to deal with the action/reaction chain. I was still responding to many things in a similar fashion, but was learning to express those responses in different ways. The input/output routines were all basically the same, I had just learned to adjust their formatting to be more suitable to the end-user.

When I began to push the boundaries of this concept, I began to ask those questions leading to "changing filters", self-programming, re-tuning the settings of each circuit axis. It was around this time that I also shifted from more eastern philosophies to studies in occultism. Before actually learning what the 6th circuit was, I found that I had already begun to channel the personal energy raising practices of ritual magic into the effort of re-programming. Basically, what I would consider shamanistic paganism. Like in everything else, I find a lot of scrub & shiite in the pagan ritual magic circles. However I have to say that in my experience, I have found a lot of very effective techiques buried amongst the subterfuge. As time has gone on, idetification, resolution and change of any issues becomes a faster and faster cycle. The only proof I have is my own experience.

So who's programming the programmer? Hell if I know. Who was driving this boat before I knew I was? Or am I? Who is the Master that makes the grass green? If I go looking for myself, who's doing the looking?

WOMP'd


Episkopos of the Discordian Society

http://42.dia.net.au - Forteetu

Iron Sulfide

  • Gaping Fistula
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 2133
  • Ablata At Alba
    • View Profile
    • High Viscosity Skeet Shoot
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2007, 06:41:05 pm »
nest question:

have you ever read finnegan's wake?
Ya' stupid Yank.

Forteetu

  • TITS
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
    • View Profile
    • 42.dia.net.au - Forteetu
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2007, 11:48:20 pm »
nest question:

have you ever read finnegan's wake?

Gee ... I write that big, long posted reply and I get back ..."have I read this book" .... mmm, disappointing

and no, I know of it, but never read it
WOMP'd


Episkopos of the Discordian Society

http://42.dia.net.au - Forteetu

Hoopla!

  • gives people the beeps, and most certainly
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 14936
    • View Profile
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2007, 01:30:50 pm »
This is the best thread I've ever read.

Mucho good stuff herein.

Concerning this:
For me, it's the primate territorialism (Circuits 1-4) combined with its opposite (Circuits 5-8)

Biggest flaw: curcuits 7-8 are so far out there, they might as well be science fiction.

I think strangely enough, my favourite summation of Leary's circuits is the bastardized version on the concordia guy's blog - there were only five.  All the circuits from 5-8 were grouped together . . . and if you think about it the definitions of 5-8 are murky at best, and muddled at worst.  I think its fair to say that they really are all one multifaceted circuit.

And in defence of Leary and RAW, neither of them ever wanted you to take the circuits too seriously either, in fact RAW moved around the 7th and 8th circuits whenever the mood seemed to strike him.  Need I repeat:  The 'menu' is not the 'meal'.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 01:32:31 pm by Baron von Hoopla »
“Soon all of us will have special names” — Professor Brian O’Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes" — Walt Whitman

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

  • Probably
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 11433
    • View Profile
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2007, 11:50:06 pm »
I'm not sure that this is a discussion of Discordianism, as much as a discussion of the philosophies of some Discordians. There's no evidence that Thornley and Hill, the main authors of the PD subscribed to all, most or even some of Bob Wilson's general philosophy. Bob had some good ideas, and some not so good ideas, same for Leary. But, their philosophical positions aren't the core themes of Discordianism... I don't think.

The core tenant of Discordianism, as far as I can tell (if such a thing exists) is this:

We can be serious, we can be silly. We can look at the world around us and see SERIOUS Issues, or we can look at the world around us and see the completely insane mass of Discord, Confusion and Bureaucracy that many of us think we see. We can be Ordered or Disordered, but in either place, the Discordian knows that they put themselves in that mental state.

The Words of the Foolish and the Words of the Wise, are not far apart in Discordian eyes.

We can talk about evolution versus creation and we can look at the order of the taxonomic tree. However, the Discordian (I think) should be able to see that the taxonomic tree is simply a game of order... not an Absolute Truth. We should be able to examine philosophies like Determinism, and see them as an interpretation of data, on an ordered grid. The same for Leary's 8-circuits... its not truth, just a set of labels which might be useful for some purposes.

The difference between a Discordian and a cabbage, in my opinion... Is that they can see life as the Art of Playing Games, games of order, games of disorder and games that switch back and forth. None of the rest of Bob's philosophy is required to be a Discordian. I think a lot of his philosophies appeal to Discordians, I think a lot of his philosophies shaped the current world of Discord... I think that he will someday be lauded as one of the most important philosophers of our time, someday. But, Bob didn't have the Truth. He never claimed to have the Truth. The claim he made, at the end, was only that "the Universe is far more complex than I will ever understand".

To be able to write dozens of books about philosophy and in the end, still admit that you don't know jack... That is Discordian!
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Hoopla!

  • gives people the beeps, and most certainly
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 14936
    • View Profile
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2007, 12:36:24 am »
I'm not sure that this is a discussion of Discordianism, as much as a discussion of the philosophies of some Discordians.

“Soon all of us will have special names” — Professor Brian O’Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes" — Walt Whitman

ńͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

  • sea monstropode
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 9234
  • the incorrect form of social currency
    • View Profile
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2007, 12:39:26 am »
ok it's not as cool as the "wow these indians would be amazing quantum physicists" story, but at least it clearly demonstrates that, in a limited sense, your perception of reality is indeed formed partially by language.

btw i can't immediately provide you with a reference for this story either (though i saw the experiment happen on video), so my point is almost just as weak as RAWs :) i could probably dig it up though (with enough effort), and it comes from a reputable scientific source.

I wouldn't worry about digging it up. I mean is just a fact after all. The only *real* references I tend to count on are those of personal experience anyway. I think in the long run tho, we're on the same page.



Quote from: Laurentian University

The primary experimental method to study the "presence" is to place the person in a simulated "cave", an acoustic chamber, where they are blindfolded and sit in the dark for about 30 min. The person wears a helmet or a collection of solenoids arranged around the head (like a crown) through which complex magnetic fields are generated. By applying specific patterns of weak magnetic fields that imitate the brains own activities, about 80% of the normal population report the experience of "another". Only specific patterns produce the experience; a reversed presentation of the pattern does not. People exposed to sham-field conditions rarely report the experience.

What we have found

We have found that: 1) the verbal label (usually supplied by the culture) the person places upon the experience strongly affects how it is recalled even within a few seconds after the end of the experiment...

emphasis added

Source
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

  • Probably
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 11433
    • View Profile
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2007, 12:58:48 am »
I'm not sure that this is a discussion of Discordianism, as much as a discussion of the philosophies of some Discordians.



You Marxist!!!!!
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Forteetu

  • TITS
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
    • View Profile
    • 42.dia.net.au - Forteetu
Re: Core Themes of Discordia
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2007, 02:45:20 am »
ok it's not as cool as the "wow these indians would be amazing quantum physicists" story, but at least it clearly demonstrates that, in a limited sense, your perception of reality is indeed formed partially by language.

btw i can't immediately provide you with a reference for this story either (though i saw the experiment happen on video), so my point is almost just as weak as RAWs :) i could probably dig it up though (with enough effort), and it comes from a reputable scientific source.

I wouldn't worry about digging it up. I mean is just a fact after all. The only *real* references I tend to count on are those of personal experience anyway. I think in the long run tho, we're on the same page.



Quote from: Laurentian University

The primary experimental method to study the "presence" is to place the person in a simulated "cave", an acoustic chamber, where they are blindfolded and sit in the dark for about 30 min. The person wears a helmet or a collection of solenoids arranged around the head (like a crown) through which complex magnetic fields are generated. By applying specific patterns of weak magnetic fields that imitate the brains own activities, about 80% of the normal population report the experience of "another". Only specific patterns produce the experience; a reversed presentation of the pattern does not. People exposed to sham-field conditions rarely report the experience.

What we have found

We have found that: 1) the verbal label (usually supplied by the culture) the person places upon the experience strongly affects how it is recalled even within a few seconds after the end of the experiment...

emphasis added

Source


Absolutely, the label applied to an experience has a massive impact on how it is recalled afterwards. Whether this is moments or years later. I also believe that that by changing the labels we use, we can change our perception of events, even those occuring years in the past. The truth is not the truth. Perceptions and how we choose to label them are the tools we have to work with. My preference has always been towards the experience rather than wrote knowledge or library building.
WOMP'd


Episkopos of the Discordian Society

http://42.dia.net.au - Forteetu