Chaoticians and Agents of Strife

[Cain]

Chaoticians and Agents of Strife

This is another arbitrary division of the Discordian society into two basic philosophical camps.  In fact, its very similar to the LDD/ELF distinction that has been made before, only I intend to look at it just a little more deeply.  I want to look at basic attitudes to Chaos and how that shapes a person's perception and thinking as a Discordian.  Although I'm looking at them as two separate topics, no-one is really only one or the other.  Rather, people tend towards one way of thinking or the other, even if they show many of the traits of the 'opposing' system.

So first, I'm talking about Chaoticians.  As the name suggests, a Chaotician has an interest in chaos that comes primarily from a metaphysical or scientific mathematical background.  They may still agree that Chaos is the ultimate, the overarching descriptive term for the mix of order and disorder, but when they are required to think about the effect of chaos in the world, or use metaphors to describe it, they will almost certainly turn to ideas taken from Chaos Theory, non-linear mathematics and occasionally a nod to Nietzsche, Heraclitus, Taoism and Postmodernism.  Eris is essentially "She Who Has Done it All", either the real goddess or metaphor lurking behind the nature of reality, a personification of the Ultimate.

Hence their view of Chaos comes from an understanding of the natural world and the way in which its processes are done.  As far as they are concerned, the truth of the role of chaos is both self-evident, and undeniable for anyone with the intellectual ability to understand the formula's behind it and the honesty to admit it.  This view of chaos, as being an ongoing and current state of the world, where the parameters are defined but within those parameters the eventual outcome cannot be measured, occasionally breeds a certain level of passivity, although this is not always the case.  The thinking is since chaos is both self-evident and ongoing, there is no need to "expose" people to it, they are exposed to it every day.

This is not always the case, based on personal inclination and sense of humour, however.  The Chaotician often acts as the R&D specialist within the Discordian society, their scientific discipline allowing them to pursue new avenues of investigation, grasp new technology and understand the weaknesses of various systems.  However, Operation MindFuck is not a necessary thing for them – it is something they do because they enjoy it or find it a challenge to pull off more and more intricate pranks.  They may also show a high amount of interest in the occult, if not the sciences, submerging themselves into studies of Crowley, Hine, Carrol and the like.

Agents of Strife, on the other hand, concentrate on the human aspects of chaos.  For them, Eris is the goddess who caused the Trojan War by rolling the golden apple, something they seek to emulate, regardless of if she is a metaphor of a real being.  They see chaos in terms of wars, conflicts, disagreements and confusion, and generally work towards those ends for their own sake.  A typical ploy of an Agent of Strife is "lets you and him fight", sitting back to reap the rewards of such an encounter. 

Agent's of Strife rarely openly declare who they are or their intentions, however.  It is not because they fear conflict heading their way, indeed many are (somewhat perversely) more than capable of dealing with it when it arises, or carrying on a campaign of disorder on their own, but often because they understand that as a person they can only have so much individual influence, it is better to work within and against other groups, to bring about situations where their interests collide and conflict becomes an actuality.

As one would expect of people more focused on human elements of chaos, Agents of Strife more normally take an interest in political, religious and military matters (these being areas ripe for conflict) and see Operation Mindfuck as more of a duty than a Chaotician.  Because they care little for the metaphysical or scientific considerations of chaos, unless they can cause mayhem among humanity, they consider exposing people to chaos as a sacred duty.  They are the front line troops of the Discordian Society, as well as its spies, saboteurs and criminals.  Chaos for them relies on being active within the world, and they work towards that goal always.  As facilitators of chaos, they usually have a strong sense of irony.

As previously stated, I don't think anyone is purely one of these, either an Agent of Strife or a Chaotician.  But it does help us understand a certain philosophical divide that does exist, between those who take that metaphysical view of chaos, and those whose view is more mayhem-centred, focusing on the human element.  I think the basis of this difference is what tends to create this difference, this almost invisible dividing line in the Discordian society.  I'm sure a synthesis can and does exist, its just a natural inclination towards one or the other that causes it to exist.

[LMNO]

Hey, good call Cain.

I must meditate on this.












(what a giveaway.)

[Reverend Ju Ju Booze]

That's interesting,I have to think a bit before saying something...

However,something already popped up in my mind:
could this "division" be due to different views of chaos itself?
In the two categories Cain points out,I see one (Choaticians) who sees Chaos as an interpretational key to the world,
while the other one (Agent of Strife) sees Chaos as a tool of change...

[Chairman Risus]

I definitely lean more towards AoS than chaotech.

[Cainad (dec.)]

For Cain:

Also, Hume wants his fork back.

[Triple Zero]

nice!

i couldn't help but feel you were kind of thinking of me when describing the chaotician. at least, it fits for a great deal (save some details).

further, you are obviously an agent of strife. which shows in the fact that the bit about the agent of strife is more solid and well-argumented than the first part. (not that the first part is bad, it's just a difference)

a few comments:

> but when they are required to think about the effect of chaos in the world, or use metaphors to describe it, they will
> almost certainly turn to ideas taken from Chaos Theory, non-linear mathematics and occasionally a nod to Nietzsche,
> Heraclitus, Taoism and Postmodernism.

i'd also add Taleb (or the general topic he talks about) to this list.

interesting idea, are the books by Taleb perhaps something that ties both schools together? because it's highly interesting from both a theoretical point of view, as well as from a more "active" point of view.

> This view of chaos, as being an ongoing and current state of the world, where the parameters are defined but within those
> parameters the eventual outcome cannot be measured, occasionally breeds a certain level of passivity, although this is not
> always the case.  The thinking is since chaos is both self-evident and ongoing, there is no need to “expose” people to it,
> they are exposed to it every day.

i dont know if this is the only, or even the most important reason for any perceived "passivity".

though maybe it is. it is more as a contrast for the Agent of Strife, it seems.

> However, Operation MindFuck is not a necessary thing for them – it is something they do because they enjoy it or find it a
> challenge to pull off more and more intricate pranks.

how very true..

well, just a few first thoughts. i also have to meditate on this

[Jasper]

This is potent.  I think this new information really tells you where you stand as a Discordian, as people have already indicated.

I think that no matter where you are now, as far as either aspect goes, the only conclusion can be to become a synthesis of both or not progress.

I think radicalism or puritanism is the true divide here.

[Jasper]

What, are you all still meditating?  This topic RULES, speak up!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

This seems very interesting, there are lots of ways we can divide the loose knit group of Discordians. I've often used:
Erisian (metaphysical)/Discordian(not particularly metaphysical)
Erisian (Use Discordianism to help the cabbages)/Discordian (Use Discordianism for the LULZ, if cabbages turn into human... so much the better)/SubGenii (Make Coleslaw)


Chaotican and Agent of Strife seem to cut crossways over those two... maybe we can better represent this sort of thing is a quadrant or something else... Hrmmm, maybe Octaves?

[Verbal Mike]

> This view of chaos, as being an ongoing and current state of the world, where the parameters are defined but within those
> parameters the eventual outcome cannot be measured, occasionally breeds a certain level of passivity, although this is not
> always the case.  The thinking is since chaos is both self-evident and ongoing, there is no need to "expose" people to it,
> they are exposed to it every day.

i dont know if this is the only, or even the most important reason for any perceived "passivity".

though maybe it is. it is more as a contrast for the Agent of Strife, it seems.

I also had a bit of a hard time with that part (since I'm definitely passive so far and mostly a Chaotician in these terms). But I think RJJB gave a much more satisfying explanation just a bit earlier in the thread:

could this "division" be due to different views of chaos itself?
In the two categories Cain points out,I see one (Choaticians) who sees Chaos as an interpretational key to the world,
while the other one (Agent of Strife) sees Chaos as a tool of change...

Seems to me this very aptly hits the nail on its head.

[Verbal Mike]

Okay, rereading what I wrote I think I should just add a little:
The part 000 quoted tries, apparently, to explain this passivity subjectively - but as 000 said and as I think I agree, Cain is more of an AoS and so he does not identify with Chaoticians as much. In other words, it's an explanation of the subjective cause for the situation, but it comes off as trying to be objective, and might miss the point because of that. OTOH, RJJB's explanation is entirely subjective and thus explains why, err, some people might be relatively passive, but only explains it from "their" point of view.

Gah, brain not working. Stupid flu-or-whatever. Does this post make any sense?

[Cain]

Makes sense to me. 

Another way of putting it is this: I can see no inherent, metaphysical views for why a Chaotician would feel the need to 'cause' chaos, mayhem and disorder.  Many do, but it seems to be a matter of personal inclination rather than deep-rooted reasons, and for some people inclined that way, it can cause a form of passivity.  Of course, I may be wrong and welcome any suggested correction on that issue.

000, while I kind of had you in mind, there were also several other people I know who I also helped create the model from.  Also, I have been reading Gleick's wonderful book, Chaos Theory lately, so that has helped me augment my thinking.

Rata, I originally did work from the Erisian/Discordian or ELF/LDD models, as we've discussed them on the board before.  However, my main interest was in why the distinction seemed to occur.  I agree there are elements of crossover on all 4 (there is no reason one could not be a NeoPagan-esque Eris worshipping Agent of Strife....for example, but I would like your precise definitions of your terms before continuing), so if you would want to work on that more, please feel free.

[Cramulus]

we should make some kind of crappy online quiz:
WHAT KIND OF DISCORDIAN ARE YOU?
and it'll generate a little image to put on your livejournal
which links to meatspin

[Cain]

we should make some kind of crappy online quiz:
WHAT KIND OF DISCORDIAN ARE YOU?
and it'll generate a little image to put on your livejournal
which links to meatspin

Someone actually did a "how Discordian are you" test.

It was utter crap.  Yours is much better, even conceptually.

Also, hotlink trolling.  Give a link to a totally inoffensive and indeed worthy image, then about two months later, swap the picture for one of Goatse or something, while keeping the URL the same. 

[Triple Zero]

we should make some kind of crappy online quiz:
WHAT KIND OF DISCORDIAN ARE YOU?
and it'll generate a little image to put on your livejournal
which links to meatspin

HELL YEAH!

we totally need to do this

Erisian AoE / Discordian AoE / Erisian Chaotician / Discordian Chaotician

multiple choice questions, score points in every quadrant, some crappy text for all 4 outcomes ..

and a nice image to hotlink to meatspin.

i can write the script for it