Attention, New Age Freaks and Weirdos.

[AFK]

I'm a level 37 uh wtf is this thread about again?

[Suu]

Roger, booze, and pagans I think.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

1.  As of now, the fact that I am a Discordian does mean I will respect any oddball beliefs you have.  Apparently, that respect has been entirely one way, so now I intend to shit my diseased and parasite-infested feces all over the next filthy hippie that tries to tell me what a KAOS MAGICKIAN he is, etc.  Fuck off, I don't want to hear it.

2.  The fact that I am a Discordian does not imply that I am a hippie who will put up with each and every hippie, freak, and new age loser that comes down the pike.  I hate you all, and I wish that you would all - as a species - die.  So don't get all butthurt when I laugh at your eccentricities.

3.  Not every viewpoint of the world and it's workings is valid.  Mine is.  Yours isn't, at least until it agrees SOMEWHAT with the actual workings of the real, physical universe.  Are we clear?

4.  If you can't tell the difference between "having an open mind" and "believing everything you are told", then you're too fucking stupid to live.  Drink Drano, please.

5.  Yeah, I just laughed at your "religion".  Deal with it, Moonbeam.

Umn correct me if I'm wrong, but did you mean "1.  As of now, the fact that I am a Discordian does not mean I will respect any oddball beliefs you have.  "?

And uh... welcome to discordia Rog... 

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

So does that mean I'm wrong and you will respect the oddball beliefs that I have? 

I'm not trying to get a rise out of you, I want to fucking know it was a typo or not... sorry for trying to make sure I'm understanding you correctly here.

Ah fuck it, I'm asking stupid questions again, aren't I?

Was a typo.  Sorry, my hate gland has been jammed for days.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Roger, it seems like your suggesting Chaos magick is about manipulation of "external reality", is that correct?  It seems to me to be more useful in application and study if it is understood as taking a more active role in psychologically altering your impressions of the world you experience.

Then why not call it "self-examination" or "meditation", both of which are valid practices? 

The Map is not the territory. Chaos Magic is a map. Why not call a City Street map "City Streets"?

And what's with the fucking "sigils", then? 

Props. Tools. Toys. In CM, sigils are designed specifically to implant ideas into the subconscious of the practitioner. That's it.

Let's say that I don't like the shape of my cell in the BiP. In the CM model, I could create a sigil which represents what I want to change in my cell. Let's say that I want to modify how I tend to respond when a salesman is trying high pressure sales tactics. I would create a sigil that evoked the modification in my mind... maybe a sigil that shows bent iron bars, or one made from letters of a statement or whatever works for the prop dept. in the persons head.

Next we place ourselves in a state of mind that is receptive... here we could use madjickel terms since its a madjickal map... or we can say a meditative state, or a highly excited psychological state (depending on what the person is trying to do). Now we meditate on the sigil, while using "ritual" to distract the conscious mind. The sigil (which your brain has created as a symbol of what you want to change) can then be embedded into the subconscious mind.

Thats it. It's a psychological prop, no more or less steaming than any other psychological prop... its possible that the psychological modifications could be done with no props... but that seems far more difficult for most people, than having a system with props that they feel comfortable using.

Of course, plenty of idiots confuse props for crutches.

It is a

steaming

pile

of

horseshit.

NO YUO

Blarg.  It's chintzy self-hypnosis.

[Cramulus]

I use Ambassador Klok Kaos Magik to win friends and influence people.



I just jack off into a bottle of




and poof! Enlightenment!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I use Ambassador Klok Kaos Magik to win friends and influence people.



I just jack off into a bottle of




and poof! Enlightenment!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Roger, it seems like your suggesting Chaos magick is about manipulation of "external reality", is that correct?  It seems to me to be more useful in application and study if it is understood as taking a more active role in psychologically altering your impressions of the world you experience.

Then why not call it "self-examination" or "meditation", both of which are valid practices? 

The Map is not the territory. Chaos Magic is a map. Why not call a City Street map "City Streets"?

And what's with the fucking "sigils", then? 

Props. Tools. Toys. In CM, sigils are designed specifically to implant ideas into the subconscious of the practitioner. That's it.

Let's say that I don't like the shape of my cell in the BiP. In the CM model, I could create a sigil which represents what I want to change in my cell. Let's say that I want to modify how I tend to respond when a salesman is trying high pressure sales tactics. I would create a sigil that evoked the modification in my mind... maybe a sigil that shows bent iron bars, or one made from letters of a statement or whatever works for the prop dept. in the persons head.

Next we place ourselves in a state of mind that is receptive... here we could use madjickel terms since its a madjickal map... or we can say a meditative state, or a highly excited psychological state (depending on what the person is trying to do). Now we meditate on the sigil, while using "ritual" to distract the conscious mind. The sigil (which your brain has created as a symbol of what you want to change) can then be embedded into the subconscious mind.

Thats it. It's a psychological prop, no more or less steaming than any other psychological prop... its possible that the psychological modifications could be done with no props... but that seems far more difficult for most people, than having a system with props that they feel comfortable using.

Of course, plenty of idiots confuse props for crutches.

It is a

steaming

pile

of

horseshit.

NO YUO

Blarg.  It's chintzy self-hypnosis.

FUCK YOU. MY MOM DIED FROM CHINTZY SELF-HYPNOSIS!!!

(Also, quit eating the fucking Menu, Spag.)

[Adjective Noun]

Its the same issue with chaos magick as it is with most 'alternative therapy', then. There's some stuff there that does work, but people are reluctant to throw out the bullshit surrounding it. Probably because it looks much less stable as a prop if you think about it in rational terms.
For instance, homeopathy (or however you spell it, the idea that diluting stuff to ridiculous levels helps it heal you) is patently bullshit. But if you suspend your disbelief a little, and trick yourself into thinking it can work, you can feel better when sick (the key there is feel, ofc). In this case, saying 'k I'm going to drink a glass of water to trick myself into thinking I'm better' probably wont have the same effect, as tricking yourself is the treatment.

Of course, the problem with not stripping away the bullshit is when you forget that it is bullshit, and you get people trying to treat terminal illness with what is essentially a glass of water. So if you dont believe in your 'magickal' cures/sigils/superpowers enough, obviously they will not work for you. Believe too much, and you're in danger of believing you can manipulate the outside world with your bullshit, which can have amusing reprecussions when the universe ignores your magick.

So I guess the key is finding a balance, as well as occasional self-checking. Or I could be talking through my ass again (its my superpower, after all)

[hooplala]

Some people are helped by 'psychic surgery' while many are not.  What's the story there?  Just placebo effect? 

I find it funny when someone is healed by something strange and the response comes "It was just psychosomatic." Wait - "JUST"?  If it works, it works . . . it's more of a side issue as to why something works, to some degree. 

I think the main problem is that these types of solutions are very unreliable.

[Cain]

As far as I know. people who are 'helped' by psychic surgery often die soon afterwards because some charlatan made them believe they were better and involved them in a very exciting ceremony which gave them a dump of endorphins, thus killing some of the pain of their underlying condition, but not what was actually causing it.

Or if the disease being 'cured' is only temporary anyway....well thats a no-brainer.  The person who has it may not even know that its a temporary illness, but I bet the 'healer' does.

[hooplala]

That's a good point.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to do a somewhat objective study?  I'm thinking any study which has been done is probably heavily on one side or the other...

[Cain]

There have been good studies into placebos recently that suggest you don't even need to believe in what you are doing, but just go through the 'ritual' of taking the medecine....but that involved depression, IIRC, and so was very subjective and non-fatal.  I'll see if JSTOR has any papers.

[Adjective Noun]

Of course, there are many success anecdotes. The problem is, who gets more attention, the person who recovered 'naturally' or the person who recovered naturally, while attributing it to 'crystal healing' or some such rot. The lesson of the law of 5s is useful when looking at this kind of thing.

For a sample, at one point it was a minor news item that 80% (or some high %age, I forget) of iraqui fighter pilots children were male. Some people started concocting 'reasons' for that, instead of saying 'wait, why are we looking at iraqui fighter pilots? Oh yeah, because there is a strange sample (out of the millions of other possible samples)'.

Sometimes, you just need to think whether 'unreliable' means 'you pretty much only hear the success stories'.

Also, about studies you might want to look up a professor of medicine by the name of Edzard Ernst. He tries to investigate many of the more common 'alternative treatments'.

EDIT: I remember seeing something about that study Cain, the initial speculation seemed to be that perhaps the placebo effect is subconcious, although many people are reserving judgement until more reliable data comes out.

[Cramulus]

I used to run clinical trials for pharmeceutical research. At the place where I worked, we ran trials in the winter for treatment of Seasonal Affective Disorder. We also had some studies on Depression.

My boss' comment on SAD patients was "I don't think it's an actual disorder so much as a personality type that loves to complain." If the only criteria for judgement of this was their research folders, this hypothesis would be supported - the SAD patients, in general, complained much more than the people who were clinically depressed. Furthermore, the criteria for SAD was vague, permissive... there were probably a number of people in the study who didn't quite have SAD, technically speaking. But still - their condition seemed to improve in both groups - those getting the study medication and those getting placebo. Maybe placebo is the cure for any psychosomatic illness. food for thought.



(PS: I do believe that SAD is "real", but I think a lot of people that claim to have it don't actually know what they're talking about)

[Jasper]

Placebos are proven to work, so long as there isn't actually anything wrong with the person.