Author Topic: Victim mentality  (Read 43034 times)

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #105 on: May 09, 2008, 06:34:59 pm »
I've never had a problem with people criticizing Israeli policy.  Many of the country's best terrorism experts do such a thing continually, for example.  Especially when a policy is inhumane, barbaric or counterproductive (usually all three of those go together) its a better idea to voice disagreement.

The problem with the Christian Zionists who bankroll AIPAC is that they a) work off an insane worldview and b) are clearly unware of the is/ought distinction (Israel is the land of God's previously Chosen People, therefore they ought to do everything in their power to defend themselves, no matter how vile it may be).  I don't blame the Israeli members of AIPAC for taking these idiots for a ride, I'm pretty sure they are aware that Christian Zionists actually care nothing for Israel beyond fulfilling some prophecy or another, and if the Israelis in question are not religious in their outlook, well then its a free gravy train.  The problem lays in those Christian Zionist members of AIPAC also having a very large amount of clout in the US government's policy, a strange case of scripture leading strategy.

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A Jewish political professor gave a lecture here at OSU about 6 months ago where he spent a lot of time discussing the difference between statements that are critical of Israel and antisemitic statements. He boiled it down to a very simple demarcation: If the statement is about Israeli policy, military decisions, etc its not necessarily antisemitic. If however, the criticism lays blame for *insert random problem here* on 'the Jews', makes statements about how the Jews are controlling the US policymakers, or about how the Jews are using the US to destroy their enemies, or that Israel doesn't have the right to exist etc.... then that falls into the realm of anti-semitic thought. In short, if the critique is about actions taken by the Israeli Government, then that's one thing, if its stereotypes the Jews as a whole, presumes some secret agenda by them, or insinuates that the Jews as a people are manipulating world events... then its antisemitism.

All in all, it was a decent lecture.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #106 on: May 09, 2008, 06:41:12 pm »
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.  Keep in mind that there is no such thing as evil.  Yes, this means that they're both just barbaric assholes.

It is always rather difficult to properly criticize Jews for asshattery because they've insisted on bundling their political ideology, religious beliefs and racial identity under the same banner.  So any time one aspect is attacked they defend with the other two.  It is retarded, but they believe in an imaginary friend/bully who alternately rewards them and kicks their ass. Now that I think of it, I'm starting to wonder if they shouldn't be adding to their Book the parts where the holocaust was god spanking them (again) for being naughty (again).   :lulz:




Cain

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2008, 06:50:39 pm »
Ratatosk:  Yeah, I did a course on ideology last year, and decided to specialize in Fascism and Neo-Fascism (despite eventually doing my paper on Communism - a side effect of reading Camus) and I would tend to agree.  Naturally I spent quite a bit of time on less than fairminded and open sites researching Neofascist ideology and language and I have noticed the same things, namely the distinction between the action and the people carrying out the action, and the justification for it.  Usually those concerned with policy will only make mention of the policy, and will contrast it against international law or, if they are less moral/more pragmatic, its intended results, as justification of their criticism.

However, overuse of the identity of the people carrying out an idiotic policy suggests something else entirely.  As an antifascist research group here pointed out, people who place excessive emphasis on Zionism are at least suspect, especially where they do not draw from the ideas of Zionism directly to a polcy.  I know the British National Party, our local fascists, use Zionist, Israeli and Jew interchangeably, and when called out on it only then remember the distinction.

MP: I believe the Kabbalah Centre (of which Madonna is a member) claimed that the Holocaust was judgement from God and only the wicked were killed.  I'm sure Mangrove could tell you more, however.  There are a number of Jewish religious fanatics who seem to believe that (which I think reinforces my original point of a victim discourse), which is somewhat disturbing.

Verbal Mike

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2008, 10:14:40 pm »
MP, in my experience the only groups that purposely use "the Jews" as the collective bundle of religion+ethnicity+politic are the fascists on both sides - the racist anti-Semite variety, and the more subtly racist Jewish fascists. The religion is the only one that correctly labels someone a Jew, imho, so I would consider myself a Hebrew (ethnicity) and Israeli (national identity) among other things, but not a Jew and not a Zionist (politic). But as these things go, I'm pretty much alone in insisting on this distinction because most people who care enough to think about it fall into the above fascists varieties of bundlers. But anyhow, when you say something about "the Jews", I read that as intentional bundling. I think we're really on the same page, or as close as can be, all circumstances considered.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #109 on: May 10, 2008, 12:40:28 pm »
Keep in mind language differences,for example Italian doesn't have two different words for "Jew" and "Hebrew" - both are translated with "Ebreo".Sure,we have "Giudeo" ("Judaic") but nobody uses it because it's too much "year 15 B.C."When referring to Hebrew institutions or culture we use "Ebraico", but this is just an adjectivation (does this word exist?) of the previously noted word,wich is anyway not offensive to Jews...
Also,there are some paradox you may not know:actually around here fascist and neo-fascist in particular loves Israel and Zionism,considering it an example of strict and strong identitarian state and ideology,things they really dig.
On the other hand critics of Israel are usually more pro-palestine-right-to-be-a-state than anti-Israel,and almost always anti-racist anyway.(all leftist groups are pro-palestine here,but surly non-rcist tough).
Neo-fascism is always been more identitarian than racist:for example they've always been anti-islamic presence in Italy,but on the other hand many groups looked at khomeini as an inspiring example:anti-islamic HERE,pro-sharia in Islamic countries:they believe that every Nation have an Identity it must upheld.That's why the most political fascist are pro-Israel:because it's Nationalist.
Obviously the more Nigger-beating oriented groups just hate Jews,Blacks,Reds (both political and ethnic)...
(don't get me wrong,both fascist styles are scum to me)
And the two groups DOES overlap.
This is because,unlike civilized countries,we have outspoken neo-fascist groups (forza nuova,for example) who are officially recognized and even ran at the last elections (without qualifying for representetion,luckily).
So,some neo-fascist use the more "politically correct" fascism just to get the benefits of legitimization,others really believes in it,making old and new school overlapping.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 12:52:37 pm by Reverend Ju Ju Booze »
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Verbal Mike

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #110 on: May 10, 2008, 10:17:14 pm »
Yes, I'm aware about that matter in Italian... Wasn't so aware of the attitudes towards Israel and the Palestinians, so thanks.
Naturally these things differ from culture to culture, from language to language... I can only testify about the cultures I'm more familiar with.
But anyhow, Jews over the ages have made it far too easy for the world to bundle them into one ethnic-religious-political pidgeonhole. It's never surprising when the concepts of Jew, Hebrew and Zionist are seen by others as inseparable.
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Cain

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #111 on: May 10, 2008, 10:38:49 pm »
You know, given how this conversation, as it evolved, would have worked out on other sites (*cough cough*) I have to say this just reinforces how awsum we are.

 8)

Incidentally, that link is probably not SFW if you work anywhere where having some sort of clarity of thought is encouraged, or hilarious conspiracy theories are looked down upon instead of considered cheap humour.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2008, 06:19:01 am »
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.

Wait.  So the Jews who were killed in deathcamps deserved it, because some Jews 3000 years ago killed off some Canaanites?
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Reverend Ju Ju Booze

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2008, 02:52:12 pm »
If I got it right Phosphor point it's all about wipin' out the concept of "deserving".
I think he's point is that is pointless to look at history trying to find out who the bastards are:if you consider a long enough piece of history...Ta-Daan!Humanity itself is the villain.
So,we should look for non-moral responsibility,for historical ones.So,if I got Phosphore right,he's analysis of holocaust goes like this:
"Nazis persecuted Jews for their reasons,okay,but also Jews "made" themselves an easy racist's target by not blending in the majority".
So point is not if they deserved it or not.Point is:are the historical and social ingredients wich built up the holocaust still there?
Do we have closed minority wich doesn't blend in?(I'm not questioning whether are they wrong or right in doing so,only if they do)
Do we have a majority concerned about it's "identity"?(same as above)
Do we have a crisis wich makes people wonder who's to blame?
If so,it doesn't really matter if military-looking parades are held or not in our country,the ingredients for xenophoby,identitarianism,and fascism are there.
We must think about it.

Now,only Phosphore himself can tell me if that was what he meant.If so,I think his point is very interesting.
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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2008, 03:15:46 pm »
If I got it right Phosphor point it's all about wipin' out the concept of "deserving".
I think he's point is that is pointless to look at history trying to find out who the bastards are:if you consider a long enough piece of history...Ta-Daan!Humanity itself is the villain.
So,we should look for non-moral responsibility,for historical ones.So,if I got Phosphore right,he's analysis of holocaust goes like this:
"Nazis persecuted Jews for their reasons,okay,but also Jews "made" themselves an easy racist's target by not blending in the majority".
So point is not if they deserved it or not.Point is:are the historical and social ingredients wich built up the holocaust still there?
Do we have closed minority wich doesn't blend in?(I'm not questioning whether are they wrong or right in doing so,only if they do)
Do we have a majority concerned about it's "identity"?(same as above)
Do we have a crisis wich makes people wonder who's to blame?
If so,it doesn't really matter if military-looking parades are held or not in our country,the ingredients for xenophoby,identitarianism,and fascism are there.
We must think about it.

Now,only Phosphore himself can tell me if that was what he meant.If so,I think his point is very interesting.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2008, 06:23:46 pm »
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.

Wait.  So the Jews who were killed in deathcamps deserved it, because some Jews 3000 years ago killed off some Canaanites?

Yep.

Eye for a 3000 year old eye.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2008, 07:24:48 pm »
If I got it right Phosphor point it's all about wipin' out the concept of "deserving".
I think he's point is that is pointless to look at history trying to find out who the bastards are:if you consider a long enough piece of history...Ta-Daan!Humanity itself is the villain.


So being a Nazi is okay, because someone else was mean a long time ago.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2008, 07:25:55 pm »

So,we should look for non-moral responsibility,for historical ones.So,if I got Phosphore right,he's analysis of holocaust goes like this:
"Nazis persecuted Jews for their reasons,okay,but also Jews "made" themselves an easy racist's target by not blending in the majority".

[/quote]

I see.  "Be the same as us, or we'll kill you" is a perfectly acceptable credo.


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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #118 on: May 11, 2008, 07:41:44 pm »
um, i don't see how you think Rev JJB says this?

in fact, pretty much the opposite. where does he say it's acceptable at all?
it is what happened, and we should be on the lookout for signs so that it doesnt happen again.

that's what's being said, i don't understand at all where you're getting this.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #119 on: May 11, 2008, 07:49:58 pm »
um, i don't see how you think Rev JJB says this?

in fact, pretty much the opposite. where does he say it's acceptable at all?
it is what happened, and we should be on the lookout for signs so that it doesnt happen again.

that's what's being said, i don't understand at all where you're getting this.

I'm responding to his defense of the OP's assfuckery.

I fail to see how the parts I quoted didn't correspond with my answers.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.