Author Topic: Victim mentality  (Read 43164 times)

Triple Zero

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2008, 07:57:04 pm »
well, the part where he supposedly says it's acceptable, as opposed to simply stating what has happened.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2008, 08:34:02 pm »
well, the part where he supposedly says it's acceptable, as opposed to simply stating what has happened.

Who, the OP?  He has stated that they deserved it.  I assume that implies he means it is an acceptable result.
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Verbal Mike

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2008, 10:31:37 pm »
I just remembered why the whole "they made themselves easy targets" falls apart when it comes to the Holocaust... The German Jews of united Germany (post 1870) considered themselves Germans first, Jews later. iirc, they came under fire from the other Jews for assimilating themselves too enthusiastically... The reason the Jews didn't leave this place when things started getting bad, was that they couldn't fathom that their country would turn against them because they're Jews... They didn't think of themselves of Jews, they were just Germans with a different religion... They needed to be carefully weeded out by a very thorough government, to be exposed at all.
So fuck that. Hitler had a grunge, the Jews were historically a good target... But they weren't visible to him, not by any effort of theirs... He saw enemies because he was a nationalist madman. Nazi anti-Semitism was never a direct continuation of classical European anti-Semitism. It may have been informed and inspired by it, but it was not the same thing. While "they stick out" is a reasonable thought when trying to understand classical anti-Semitism, the Nazi variety is a different breed entirely and has nothing to do with sticking out.
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« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 10:39:16 pm by Verbatim »
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2008, 10:35:19 pm »
I just remembered why the whole "they made themselves easy targets" falls apart when it comes to the Holocaust... The German Jews of united Germany (post 1870) considered themselves Germans first, Jews later. iirc, they came under fire from the other Jews for assimilating themselves too enthusiastically... The reason the Jews didn't leave this place when things started getting bad, was that they couldn't fathom that their country would turn against them because they're Jews... They didn't think of themselves of Jews, they were just Germans with a different religion... They needed to be carefully weeded out by a very thorough government, to be exposed at all.
So fuck that. Hitler has a grunge, the Jews were historically a good target... But they weren't visible to him, not by any effort of theirs... He saw enemies because he was a nationalist madman. Nazi anti-Semitism was never a direct continuation of classical European anti-Semitism. It may have been informed and inspired by it, but it was not the same thing. While "they stick out" is a reasonable thought when trying to understand classical anti-Semitism, the Nazi variety is a different breed entirely and has nothing to do with sticking out.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2008, 11:02:24 pm »
Its true.  Naziism was what I believe is called "second wave" antisemitism, which is predicated on biological/Social Darwinist ideas of nationality.  No doubt it meshed well with stereotypes proglumated by Christian antisemites, like deicide and the blood libel (reinforcing the biological 'outsider' = political/cultural outsider idea), but the basic issue was that of heritage, not integration.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #125 on: May 12, 2008, 01:42:10 am »
well, the part where he supposedly says it's acceptable, as opposed to simply stating what has happened.

Who, the OP?  He has stated that they deserved it.  I assume that implies he means it is an acceptable result.

ah, sorry now i get it. hm can't even blame lack of coffee :)
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #126 on: May 12, 2008, 01:53:28 am »
well, the part where he supposedly says it's acceptable, as opposed to simply stating what has happened.

Who, the OP?  He has stated that they deserved it.  I assume that implies he means it is an acceptable result.

ah, sorry now i get it. hm can't even blame lack of coffee :)

Wait.  The holocaust happened because someone missed their coffee?
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #127 on: May 12, 2008, 02:00:21 am »
I don't know about you, but when I don't have any in a while, I'm cranky as fuck.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #128 on: May 12, 2008, 02:08:34 am »
I know(not about coffee,about the second wave bit),but I've just tried to understand what some controversial posts meant (and failed?)
Just to clarify a bit: I was not "defending OP assfuckery",only I don't believe that "they deserved it" is what he was saying.That's FAR from agreeing with him.
But:
If I got it right Phosphor point it's all about wipin' out the concept of "deserving".
I think he's point is that is pointless to look at history trying to find out who the bastards are:if you consider a long enough piece of history...Ta-Daan!Humanity itself is the villain.


So being a Nazi is okay, because someone else was mean a long time ago.

NO.IT'S NOT.But neither is judging PEOPLES the way you do with individuals:at some point everybody did something wrong.
That's the only point I share with Phosphor,and keep in mind that it doesn't imply that anybody deserved anything.
That's why I don't think he was saying so.

@ Verb (wich sounded pissed off): sorry, I need to say to you that if anything I say sounds like justifying tha nazis,read twice or ask explanations:it's surely meaning something else.I'm totally against guiltification of Jews/Hebrew (please tell me how I use two words both meaning "Ebreo"),and that also for personal cultural reasons:really TOO often I see people,even parlamentarian representatives,talking about "rewriting history about fascism,wich is been written by communists".I saw a Salò veteran named minister... :argh!:
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 02:10:18 am by Reverend Ju Ju Booze »
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #129 on: May 12, 2008, 02:19:43 am »

NO.IT'S NOT.But neither is judging PEOPLES the way you do with individuals:at some point everybody did something wrong.
That's the only point I share with Phosphor,and keep in mind that it doesn't imply that anybody deserved anything.
That's why I don't think he was saying so.


I think he was saying so, because he said he was saying so.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

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Verbal Mike

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #130 on: May 12, 2008, 05:07:09 am »
RJJB, I'm not pissed with you, not really pissed at all anymore, maybe still a little with Muffled.
As for Hebrew/Jew, I personally use "Hebrew" to refer to people of Jewish ancestry (such as myself), that is, I use the term for the ethnic group you call ebreo; I use "Jew" for people of the Jewish religion (such as my sister). But most people use "Hebrew" the way I do sometimes, and mostly use "Jew" for both.
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #131 on: May 12, 2008, 06:54:16 pm »
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.

Wait.  So the Jews who were killed in deathcamps deserved it, because some Jews 3000 years ago killed off some Canaanites?
Welcome to entirely missing the point.

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.  The secondary point was that genocide was acceptable to them when they were the ones doing it and that the practice still hasn't gone out of style.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2008, 07:03:51 pm »
If I got it right Phosphor point it's all about wipin' out the concept of "deserving".
I think he's point is that is pointless to look at history trying to find out who the bastards are:if you consider a long enough piece of history...Ta-Daan!Humanity itself is the villain.
So,we should look for non-moral responsibility,for historical ones.So,if I got Phosphore right,he's analysis of holocaust goes like this:
"Nazis persecuted Jews for their reasons,okay,but also Jews "made" themselves an easy racist's target by not blending in the majority".
So point is not if they deserved it or not.Point is:are the historical and social ingredients wich built up the holocaust still there?
Do we have closed minority wich doesn't blend in?(I'm not questioning whether are they wrong or right in doing so,only if they do)
Do we have a majority concerned about it's "identity"?(same as above)
Do we have a crisis wich makes people wonder who's to blame?
If so,it doesn't really matter if military-looking parades are held or not in our country,the ingredients for xenophoby,identitarianism,and fascism are there.
We must think about it.

Now,only Phosphore himself can tell me if that was what he meant.If so,I think his point is very interesting.

That's an interesting reading of it, but not quite where I was going.  Certainly it is the correct path if you're looking to artificially and temporarily alleviating such conditions within a very narrowly defined context.  Honestly, I don't like humans enough to care about preventing repeat performances.  Quite the opposite, actually.

I was thinking more along the lines of illuminating such human behavior with the light of the Sermon on Ethics and Love.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #133 on: May 12, 2008, 07:13:41 pm »
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.

Wait.  So the Jews who were killed in deathcamps deserved it, because some Jews 3000 years ago killed off some Canaanites?
Welcome to entirely missing the point.

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.
Bullshit.  The nazis actually COMMITTED THE FUCKING GENOCIDE.  The Jews supposedly had ancestors that did it.

It's like saying you can't "bitch" about murderers if your great uncle was one.

The secondary point was that genocide was acceptable to them when they were the ones doing it and that the practice still hasn't gone out of style.
But they (modern-day Jews) weren't the ones doing it.

The nazis, however, actually killed people.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 07:23:11 pm by Idem »

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #134 on: May 12, 2008, 07:26:03 pm »
It's like saying you can't "bitch" about murderers if your great uncle was one.

Good analogy.
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