Author Topic: Victim mentality  (Read 43111 times)

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #135 on: May 12, 2008, 07:28:08 pm »
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.

Wait.  So the Jews who were killed in deathcamps deserved it, because some Jews 3000 years ago killed off some Canaanites?
Welcome to entirely missing the point.

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.
Bullshit.  The nazis actually COMMITTED THE FUCKING GENOCIDE.  The Jews supposedly had ancestors that did it.

It's like saying you can't "bitch" about murderers if your great uncle was one.

Agreed, though if you glorify your Uncle and say that God told him to kill all of those people, you might be a bit compromised if you're condeming another murderer...

More importantly though, is the question of NOW.

The Jews/Hebrews/Israelis should, I think it goes without saying, not be held accountable for the actions of their forefathers, particularly since there's not much evidence that anything pre-539 BC existed outside someones imagination. Surely the actions of ancient people, should not be considered in dealing with modern people. This seems true to me, even if "ancient" is nothing more than 50 years or so. A German living today, should not be held accountable for the actions of Hitler. Likewise, a Jew living today, should not be coddled as a victim, simply because someone with similar DNA was a victim in the past.

So, no, the Nazis have no excuse for their actions... and I can't agree that the ancient legends of Cannan were in any way a justification for the Nazi actions... other than to exemplify that genocide has been a mainstay of human life for at least 3500 years.
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LMNO

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #136 on: May 12, 2008, 07:35:35 pm »
I'm still trying to get my head around the "They chose to be different, so they made targets of themselves."








hunter s.durden

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #137 on: May 12, 2008, 07:36:40 pm »
I'm still trying to get my head around the "They chose to be different, so they made targets of themselves."

No one here said that, right?
Wasn't that a book or something?
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #138 on: May 12, 2008, 07:41:47 pm »
Hmm.  You may be right.

LMNO
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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #139 on: May 12, 2008, 07:42:59 pm »
I'm still trying to get my head around the "They chose to be different, so they made targets of themselves."

No one here said that, right?
Wasn't that a book or something?

Well I said:

Quote
the ideology that says "We are seperate from everyone around us. We will stick only with our own people, our own customs and our own beliefs." makes any minority ripe for abuse. Is it 'right'? Of course not, but does such an ideology bear some responsibility for the perceptions that outsides might have about them? Of course. JW's, Mormons, Jews, the Amish, the current tension between Hispanic immigrants and Americans (or the Irish, or the Catholic etc etc)... in some sense, relates to these groups refusing to join the local tribe, the local set of standards, ideas, language etc. make them seperate, make them different... they place the US/THEM dichotomy on the majority and I find it unsurprising that the majority often responds by acting like monkeys defending their territory from a weird group of other monkeys.

Which could be interpreted as LMNO stated.... though I was making a clinical observation, rather than saying that it was justified.

When a minority says "We are gonna be different than you. We are gonna have our own churches, our own language, our own beanies, our own hairstyles, our own neighborhoods...", the host society will see them as a separate tribe. Sadly, primates of majority tribes tend to shit on primates of minority tribes. If you willingly place your culture in the position of being a minority tribe... you will likely get shat on.

- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

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AFK

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #140 on: May 12, 2008, 08:03:43 pm »
I think that's a rather self-centered view.  To view it as someone willingfully being different from you, as opposed to looking at it like they are just being themselves.  The way you phrase it makes it sound like a minority is being a minority to be a minority, instead of a minority being a minority because, well, that's just the way they want to live. 
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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #141 on: May 12, 2008, 08:15:28 pm »
I think that's a rather self-centered view.  To view it as someone willingfully being different from you, as opposed to looking at it like they are just being themselves.  The way you phrase it makes it sound like a minority is being a minority to be a minority, instead of a minority being a minority because, well, that's just the way they want to live. 

I think you're confusing my observation "this is how humans tend to act" and "Ratatosk thinks minorities are ..." ;-)

I don't care why a minority wants to act differently. I don't care how they behave as long as they aren't harming other people. However, I am not surprised when the different acting group gets picked on.... Besides, most societies that maintain their minority identity, tend to do so intentionally... to mark themselves as special and separate. JW's behave as they do because "They are no part of the world" and want to show everyone by example. The Amish are the same. The Jews, follow similarly. They are different, because they believe that they are special 'the Chosen people'.

Anytime a small group acts weird then says "Oh well, that's because we're so special", I expect the other primates will likely throw poo or worse at them.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #142 on: May 12, 2008, 08:19:57 pm »
Welcome to entirely missing the point.

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.
Bullshit.  The nazis actually COMMITTED THE FUCKING GENOCIDE.  The Jews supposedly had ancestors that did it.

It's like saying you can't "bitch" about murderers if your great uncle was one.

False analogy.  It has nothing to do with geneology and everything to do with ideology.

A better anaolgy would be:  It's like saying you can't "bitch" about genocide if you're a Nazi.

Ratatosk hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that modern Germans can't be held responsible for the holocaust any more than modern Jews can claim victim status for it.  That right there should be E/O/T.

Quote
The secondary point was that genocide was acceptable to them when they were the ones doing it and that the practice still hasn't gone out of style.
But they (modern-day Jews) weren't the ones doing it.

The Jews, however, actually killed people.
fixt

Stop dodging the issue.  Humans do fucked up shit.  All of them.  Just because they got their asses handed to them this time around doesn't excuse past behavior.  I wouldn't be quite so firm on this issue if they didn't insist so strongly that they were the same people (people = homogenous cultural and political organization).

And just because a group that is known to support genocide in the past is not currently (overtly) engaging in mass genocide does not mean that they won't revert to mass genocide again if the mood should take them.  My point here being that all three major brands of Abrahamic religions (or however the fuck you define them) are rooted in the "old testament" they share in common.  All three claim that ALL MORALITY comes directly from their god and defend their past actions of genocide, slavery, rape, and misogyny as directly ordained by their god (and therefore perfectly moral).  There is rot in the core of their moral code and it is that rot that I despise.

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #143 on: May 12, 2008, 08:22:29 pm »
I think that's a rather self-centered view.  To view it as someone willingfully being different from you, as opposed to looking at it like they are just being themselves.  The way you phrase it makes it sound like a minority is being a minority to be a minority, instead of a minority being a minority because, well, that's just the way they want to live. 

I think you're confusing my observation "this is how humans tend to act" and "Ratatosk thinks minorities are ..." ;-)

I don't care why a minority wants to act differently. I don't care how they behave as long as they aren't harming other people. However, I am not surprised when the different acting group gets picked on.... Besides, most societies that maintain their minority identity, tend to do so intentionally... to mark themselves as special and separate. JW's behave as they do because "They are no part of the world" and want to show everyone by example. The Amish are the same. The Jews, follow similarly. They are different, because they believe that they are special 'the Chosen people'.

Anytime a small group acts weird then says "Oh well, that's because we're so special", I expect the other primates will likely throw poo or worse at them.


define "acts weird"
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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #144 on: May 12, 2008, 08:28:45 pm »
I think that's a rather self-centered view.  To view it as someone willingfully being different from you, as opposed to looking at it like they are just being themselves.  The way you phrase it makes it sound like a minority is being a minority to be a minority, instead of a minority being a minority because, well, that's just the way they want to live. 

I think you're confusing my observation "this is how humans tend to act" and "Ratatosk thinks minorities are ..." ;-)

I don't care why a minority wants to act differently. I don't care how they behave as long as they aren't harming other people. However, I am not surprised when the different acting group gets picked on.... Besides, most societies that maintain their minority identity, tend to do so intentionally... to mark themselves as special and separate. JW's behave as they do because "They are no part of the world" and want to show everyone by example. The Amish are the same. The Jews, follow similarly. They are different, because they believe that they are special 'the Chosen people'.

Anytime a small group acts weird then says "Oh well, that's because we're so special", I expect the other primates will likely throw poo or worse at them.


define "acts weird"


Acts in a manner differently than the majority tribe. The more visible/obvious the 'weirdness' to outsiders, the more likely that the minority tribe will, at some point get the crap kicked out of them.

So that may include, but not be limited to:

Different God
Different Church
Different Clothing
Different Language
Separate Social Group
Separate Neighborhoods

Now, I think, (I could be wrong) that I've often supported and encouraged that individuals should 'think for themselves', and I do not intend this to say "These groups are dumb because they think for themselves". Rather, I'm stating that groups which intentionally behave differently than the majority appear more likely to be victims of abuse, genocide, prejudice etc.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

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AFK

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #145 on: May 12, 2008, 08:34:55 pm »
I guess to me this still reads like it's the minoritie's fault.  That it is their actions, the way they live that is bringing them the uninvited grief.  From my perspective it's the other side of the coin.  It isn't that the minority is intentionally acting different.  They are just living the way they want to live.  It's that the knee-jerk majority has either a God-complex or some seething insecurity in that they need to weed out anyone who is different than them. 

In other words, it's not that the minority are acting "weird" or "different", it's that the oppressive majority are fucking pricks. 
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hunter s.durden

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #146 on: May 12, 2008, 08:35:04 pm »
All I know is this, if we're going for E/O/T: A few month ago I had to listen to some fuck hole talk about how "Bolshevik Jews" or something, started Communism and blah blah blah. This same guy went on to bitch about "Zionists" and how blacks and Jews are racially(genetically) inferior.
This man was a cop, and he is not the only one to think this way.

SO: Fuck the Holocaust. Let's drop the Holocaust and talk about how things are RIGHT NOW. Jews are still victimized unfairly in todays world. All the jokes made about money grubbing and murdering Christians for their bizzare rituals are true to the bigots. I don't know where this thread was headed, but you're fucking blind if you think Jews don't still face unfair persecution.

Jews would be just as bad off as blacks if they didn't look so white, or if their culture followed the same downturn that plagued Black culture (gangster rap, thug life... c'mon fellas... rapping about murder and rape aren't the best way to reverse negative stereotypes).

Anyhoo: Fuck France.
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Verbal Mike

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #147 on: May 12, 2008, 08:36:41 pm »
MP, why do you insist on believing "the Jews" are a singular entity in any kind of real sense?

I "bitch and moan" about the Holocaust, amongst other things, because my grandmother's family was revoked of its German citizenship, forced out of its home, had its property and holding seized, and was subsequently sent, for the most part, to Poland to be butchered. The fact that Hitler thought he was doing it to "the Jews" means nothing to me. No ideology of mine identifies me or anyone in my family as "the Jews". So explain to me how the fuck me or my family has anything to do with Canaan, and why I don't have a right to feel kinda pissed about what happened not far away from where I live, only decades before I was born?
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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #148 on: May 12, 2008, 08:39:18 pm »
Welcome to entirely missing the point.

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.
Bullshit.  The nazis actually COMMITTED THE FUCKING GENOCIDE.  The Jews supposedly had ancestors that did it.

It's like saying you can't "bitch" about murderers if your great uncle was one.

False analogy.  It has nothing to do with geneology and everything to do with ideology.

A better anaolgy would be:  It's like saying you can't "bitch" about genocide if you're a Nazi.

Ratatosk hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that modern Germans can't be held responsible for the holocaust any more than modern Jews can claim victim status for it.  That right there should be E/O/T.

Quote
The secondary point was that genocide was acceptable to them when they were the ones doing it and that the practice still hasn't gone out of style.
But they (modern-day Jews) weren't the ones doing it.

The Jews, however, actually killed people.
fixt

Stop dodging the issue.  Humans do fucked up shit.  All of them.  Just because they got their asses handed to them this time around doesn't excuse past behavior.  I wouldn't be quite so firm on this issue if they didn't insist so strongly that they were the same people (people = homogenous cultural and political organization).

And just because a group that is known to support genocide in the past is not currently (overtly) engaging in mass genocide does not mean that they won't revert to mass genocide again if the mood should take them.  My point here being that all three major brands of Abrahamic religions (or however the fuck you define them) are rooted in the "old testament" they share in common.  All three claim that ALL MORALITY comes directly from their god and defend their past actions of genocide, slavery, rape, and misogyny as directly ordained by their god (and therefore perfectly moral).  There is rot in the core of their moral code and it is that rot that I despise.
So, who are these people you keep talking about that claim modern-day nazis committed genocide?

Amoung modern-day nazis offenses (though there are some that are only fascist bastards, not racist), AFAIK, would be:

1.)  Being anti-semetic
2.)  Looking up to a man that committed genocide as a kind of hero
3.)  Beating up minorites every now and then

They didn't actually commit the genocide those many decades ago, and I don't see anybody claiming that they are responsible for it.  For the most part, you seem to be speaking hypothetically.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 08:45:56 pm by Idem »

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Victim mentality
« Reply #149 on: May 12, 2008, 08:59:55 pm »
I guess to me this still reads like it's the minoritie's fault.  That it is their actions, the way they live that is bringing them the uninvited grief.  From my perspective it's the other side of the coin.  It isn't that the minority is intentionally acting different.  They are just living the way they want to live.  It's that the knee-jerk majority has either a God-complex or some seething insecurity in that they need to weed out anyone who is different than them. 

In other words, it's not that the minority are acting "weird" or "different", it's that the oppressive majority are fucking pricks. 

Ah, now you're getting your morality circuit and territory circuit confused good Reverend. ;-)


(Here follows metaphor using Leary's 8 circuit model)
In a wonderful world, where humans had strong third and fourth circuits, with an "I'm OK/You're OK" imprint on the first two circuits (Friendly Strength)... then we all could behave however we wished without any sort of resulting genocide and nonsense. However, mosbunal humans, imprint weakly on the first circuit, leaving them to see the world as an unfriendly place, full of weird and dangerous things. If these poor sods also imprint 'weak' on tewrritory, then they will roll over when the Big Dogs start goosestepping and burning books. If they imprint strong on the second circuit, then they'll likely be the Big Dogs goosestepping and burning books.

People who imprint "Unfriendly Strength", when in the position of a majority, will see "Us vs Them" whenever a minority group begins visibly behaving differently... no matter what the reason for this different behavior might be. We may not like it... and those few of the human species who like to examine nuance might find it revolting... but as far as I can tell, its just humans acting like humans.

Indeed... I would say that both the minority, intentionally trying to be 'different' (not all that unlike the Discordian who is absurd in order to be special) and the majority, intentionally trying to wipe out the competing tribe, are both behaving like human beings... the sad, damned creatures that we are.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson