Frequently asked questions..

[memy]

It's all the same to me. The Taoist Yin Yang symbol shows it best.

There is good in evil and evil in good. Saying something is good automatically makes something else not good, and vice versa. The orderly process eventually causes a disorderly process, and because of that the orderly process might as well be described as a disorderly process to begin with.

There is no such thing as a simplification for the universe. All things head towards complication. The dripping of water, procucing an amorphous blob of liquid, which eventually rounds out to a perfect sphere, is not orderly. Spheres are very complicated. And the drop will eventually break. The concept of chaos is really just the way Eris looks at the universe and says "well, what's the next logical step for this to get more complicated than it already is?"

[LMNO]

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

a pattern is a repeating metric, right?  does this not hold whether or not it is discovered by our perceptions?

But a "repeating metric" exists in the experiential universe as an abstract, or a generalization.

That is, each Thing that supposedly repeats is not the same Thing; only when we apply Filters to the Thing does it conform to a label.


In Concepts, like Math and Physics, we can have Absolute things.  But not in the Universe we experience.

[AFK]

A perceived pattern... that is 'there is a pattern if you consider the geometric layout to be a pattern based on your perception of the world'. If the person looking at Starbucks Pebbles had never seen a pentagon or a pentagram (let's say some poor caveman), would they see a pattern... would there be a pattern?

Perhaps the caveman has been exposed to a pattern in the cave that the rest of us non-cave dwellers have not been exposed to.  

[Cainad (dec.)]

This is one of the best conversations I have been involved in for quite q while.

LMNO suggests, if I am reading right, that my perception of a pattern or lack of one is capable of creating disorder.

RWHN and Cram suggest that disorder exists in the uncertainty of a things future in spite of it's current condition.

Take a volcano. If a volcano erupts is this disorder or is the ordered behavior of a volcano just being a volcano?

From the perspective of geosciences and tectonic theory, it is at least somewhat ordered. There is a way and reason to the eruption of volcanoes, wherever they occur (volcanoes just being volcanoes, in other words).

If you don't know diddly about what goes on underneath the Earth's crust, it can be seen as a disorderly event because "WOAH WHY THE FUCK DID THAT HAPPEN HOLY SHIT IT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE" and then you get brained by a pyroclastic boulder.

In general, I would say that the distinction between Order and Disorder is:

Order is our ability to make patterns in what we percieve.

Disorder is when we can't find any patterns.

So, whether something is Ordered or Disordered is completely up to the person's ability to find a pattern.

If we can apply a pattern, rule, or some other predictive criteria to a thing, then it's Ordered. If we can't predict what it does/will do, then it's Disordered.


To further confuse things by going back to the scientific usages:

A block of ice is said to have "less disorder" (lower entropy) than a mass of liquid water. If you look at individual water molecules in a block of ice, you can see their hexagonal arrangement and, more than that, you can use this observed pattern to predict where every other molecule of water in the structure will be in relation to each other as long as that ice remains frozen. If you took the effort to observe every other molecule of water, your predictions would hold with a fair degree of accuracy. Thus, order, in this sense.

If you looked at liquid water on the molecular level and tried to derive a pattern from what you saw, not only would you have a hard time of it (since you'd be looking at a great big mess), but the pattern you derived would be useless for predicting where all the other molecules of water are in relation to each other. Thus, disorder (scientifically referred to as entropy), in this sense.

HOWEVER, as 6ftSole/RWHN said, and to take things away from scientific usages, there is still order of a different kind related to that mass of liquid water. It will, if it is pure, boil at 100 degrees Celsius at standard pressure, and all the other rules that apply to water on the macroscopic level, are there.


and finally,

Warning - while you were typing 15 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

jesus diddlyfumping arseweasels, guys. slow down.

[Telarus]

Actually, I think RWHN and Cram are saying CHAOS is the state of potential and uncertainty.


So, while Things can be Ordered or Disordered within a Set, the ability to choose multiple Sets for the same Things is CHAOS.

Yeah, I was questioning whether Chaos can be begot by one of its offsprings, Order.  But of course I was forgetting that CHAOS always is.  Whether or not the candies were put into the bag in an orderly process, the candies still are existing in a state of CHAOS with the potential of either becoming a disorderly mess of candies on a floor, or an orderly state of melted into a chocolate bunny.  

Nailed it. The key is realizing that when we go back to (considering) CHAOS, all is transitory, all is flux.

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

a pattern is a repeating metric, right?  does this not hold whether or not it is discovered by our perceptions?

But a "repeating metric" exists in the experiential universe as an abstract, or a generalization.

That is, each Thing that supposedly repeats is not the same Thing; only when we apply Filters to the Thing does it conform to a label.


In Concepts, like Math and Physics, we can have Absolute things.  But not in the Universe we experience.

LMNO> Bucky Fuller would agree with that. I'll find some quotes.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Example?

Back to my volcano example. If it erupts is it disorder or simply ordered volcano activity or is the result depending on our perceptions?

In one Set, it is ordered because it is following the physical laws of heat and pressure and gelology.

In another Set, it is disordered because we have incomplete information on the moment-to-moment behavior of the terrain, and cannot predict where the magma will erupt.

In a third Set, it is ordered because we know that the lava will flow downhill.

In a fourth Set, it is disordered because we don't know exactly how it will flow.

Etc.

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

a pattern is a repeating metric, right?  does this not hold whether or not it is discovered by our perceptions?

i always took the illusion/delusion thing to mean that an insistence on the primacy of one over the other is false, since it is all chaos at the root...  for instance, with the starbuck's pebbles.  there is a pattern there in their geometry.  insisting that the pattern takes precedence over their simply being there as the chaos would have it is the illusion...

Wouldn't it be more precise to day that disorder is no pattern.  and order is pattern?  And both come from Chaos?  Chaos is the way the stuff was before we interpreted its state with our minds and applied any kind of work or force to them?  

That's the way i see it...

A perceived pattern... that is 'there is a pattern if you consider the geometric layout to be a pattern based on your perception of the world'. If the person looking at Starbucks Pebbles had never seen a pentagon or a pentagram (let's say some poor caveman), would they see a pattern... would there be a pattern?

Perhaps the caveman has been exposed to a pattern in the cave that the rest of us non-cave dwellers have not been exposed to.  

Sure, also very true! He may see patterns in the rocks themselves rather than the formation (This rock from me cave, that one from Bob's cave, that one from Oog's cave cause they have the right patterns).

[AFK]

and finally,

Warning - while you were typing 15 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

jesus diddlyfumping arseweasels, guys. slow down.

Its been awhile since we've had one of these philosophical explosions.  I'm loving it!  Taking me back to 06/07.  

[Elder Iptuous]

Ok, then.
let's define 'pattern' for the context, because i hadn't seen it as a construct of the mind, but an property of the arrangement of what is...

LMNO,
it exists in the abstract only as a criteria to delimit the set of what falls within it.
a thing is a thing in the actual world.  just because we have to create an abstraction to conceptualize it, doesn't make what is there not what it is.
....actually, maybe i don't understand what you mean.

also, cainad is correct

this conversation is chaos.

[AFK]

Example?

Back to my volcano example. If it erupts is it disorder or simply ordered volcano activity or is the result depending on our perceptions?

In one Set, it is ordered because it is following the physical laws of heat and pressure and gelology.

In another Set, it is disordered because we have incomplete information on the moment-to-moment behavior of the terrain, and cannot predict where the magma will erupt.

In a third Set, it is ordered because we know that the lava will flow downhill.

In a fourth Set, it is disordered because we don't know exactly how it will flow.

Etc.

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

a pattern is a repeating metric, right?  does this not hold whether or not it is discovered by our perceptions?

i always took the illusion/delusion thing to mean that an insistence on the primacy of one over the other is false, since it is all chaos at the root...  for instance, with the starbuck's pebbles.  there is a pattern there in their geometry.  insisting that the pattern takes precedence over their simply being there as the chaos would have it is the illusion...

Wouldn't it be more precise to day that disorder is no pattern.  and order is pattern?  And both come from Chaos?  Chaos is the way the stuff was before we interpreted its state with our minds and applied any kind of work or force to them?  

That's the way i see it...

A perceived pattern... that is 'there is a pattern if you consider the geometric layout to be a pattern based on your perception of the world'. If the person looking at Starbucks Pebbles had never seen a pentagon or a pentagram (let's say some poor caveman), would they see a pattern... would there be a pattern?

Perhaps the caveman has been exposed to a pattern in the cave that the rest of us non-cave dwellers have not been exposed to.  

Sure, also very true! He may see patterns in the rocks themselves rather than the formation (This rock from me cave, that one from Bob's cave, that one from Oog's cave cause they have the right patterns).

But it does point out how huge the role of experience and education (a word I use somewhat loosely) plays into all of this.  

[Adios]

and finally,

Warning - while you were typing 15 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

jesus diddlyfumping arseweasels, guys. slow down.

Its been awhile since we've had one of these philosophical explosions.  I'm loving it!  Taking me back to 06/07.  

Seconded.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Actually, I think RWHN and Cram are saying CHAOS is the state of potential and uncertainty.


So, while Things can be Ordered or Disordered within a Set, the ability to choose multiple Sets for the same Things is CHAOS.

Yeah, I was questioning whether Chaos can be begot by one of its offsprings, Order.  But of course I was forgetting that CHAOS always is.  Whether or not the candies were put into the bag in an orderly process, the candies still are existing in a state of CHAOS with the potential of either becoming a disorderly mess of candies on a floor, or an orderly state of melted into a chocolate bunny.  

Nailed it. The key is realizing that when we go back to (considering) CHAOS, all is transitory, all is flux.

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

a pattern is a repeating metric, right?  does this not hold whether or not it is discovered by our perceptions?

But a "repeating metric" exists in the experiential universe as an abstract, or a generalization.

That is, each Thing that supposedly repeats is not the same Thing; only when we apply Filters to the Thing does it conform to a label.


In Concepts, like Math and Physics, we can have Absolute things.  But not in the Universe we experience.

LMNO> Bucky Fuller would agree with that. I'll find some quotes.

As does Hagbard Celine

http://www.rawilson.com/illuminatus.html#whistle

... very classification is a Damnation, just as every inclusion is an exclusion.

an property of the arrangement of what is...

Not to be too ePrimish... but I think that considering an arrangement of what 'is' may be part of the disconnect between LMNO's position and yours.

[memy]

This is how I know breaking the candies was the right thing to do.

Cause of things like this.

[Adios]

Example?

Back to my volcano example. If it erupts is it disorder or simply ordered volcano activity or is the result depending on our perceptions?

In one Set, it is ordered because it is following the physical laws of heat and pressure and gelology.

In another Set, it is disordered because we have incomplete information on the moment-to-moment behavior of the terrain, and cannot predict where the magma will erupt.

In a third Set, it is ordered because we know that the lava will flow downhill.

In a fourth Set, it is disordered because we don't know exactly how it will flow.

Etc.

Do go on... I've been relating this to standard Discordian Catma, which calls Order and Disorder Illusions.

I'm willing to discuss it in other terms, if you can lay them out for me.

a pattern is a repeating metric, right?  does this not hold whether or not it is discovered by our perceptions?

i always took the illusion/delusion thing to mean that an insistence on the primacy of one over the other is false, since it is all chaos at the root...  for instance, with the starbuck's pebbles.  there is a pattern there in their geometry.  insisting that the pattern takes precedence over their simply being there as the chaos would have it is the illusion...

Wouldn't it be more precise to day that disorder is no pattern.  and order is pattern?  And both come from Chaos?  Chaos is the way the stuff was before we interpreted its state with our minds and applied any kind of work or force to them?  

That's the way i see it...

A perceived pattern... that is 'there is a pattern if you consider the geometric layout to be a pattern based on your perception of the world'. If the person looking at Starbucks Pebbles had never seen a pentagon or a pentagram (let's say some poor caveman), would they see a pattern... would there be a pattern?

Perhaps the caveman has been exposed to a pattern in the cave that the rest of us non-cave dwellers have not been exposed to.  

Sure, also very true! He may see patterns in the rocks themselves rather than the formation (This rock from me cave, that one from Bob's cave, that one from Oog's cave cause they have the right patterns).

But it does point out how huge the role of experience and education (a word I use somewhat loosely) plays into all of this.  

Instead of using the cave illustration I converted it to a high rise construction. To the average guy watching from the street it just looks like a giant clusterfuck. To the construction worker it make perfectly ordered sense.

So full circle back to Illusion.

[LMNO]

LMNO,
it exists in the abstract only as a criteria to delimit the set of what falls within it.
a thing is a thing in the actual world.  just because we have to create an abstraction to conceptualize it, doesn't make what is there not what it is.
....actually, maybe i don't understand what you mean.

I claim that a Pattern is a user-created process that Filters out aspects of the Experiential Universe in order to find a "repeating metric" (to use your term).

I also claim that if you change those Filters, those aspects of the Experiential Universe are no longer a "repeating metric".

Therefore, any "repeating metric" is soley the creation of the observer.

[Elder Iptuous]

LMNO,
i also just was struck by you saying:

In Concepts, like Math and Physics, we can have Absolute things.  But not in the Universe we experience.

and it occurs to me that the former is a subset of the latter, no?