Indecision 08 Wingnut thread

[Payne]

Ultimately, it's FREE training. I like free things, and would subscribe to such a proposal.

[Elder Iptuous]

...It need not be all of them, especially since many are, as previously mentioned, lazy or useless, but without some sort of government program that eventually rounds back around to the people who can afford to take such training and not not have necessary work commitments, and I don't trust those people because they will buy their way out of any problem and leave the rest of us to, say, get eaten by bandits.

huh? i can't quite parse this bit.  but i think the gist of it is, 'we need a .gov program to organize community cooperation'.  If that is what you mean, then i would ask what is preventing people from doing this now?

[Elder Iptuous]

Ultimately, it's FREE training. I like free things, and would subscribe to such a proposal.

ECH likes unicorns, but that doesn't mean he'll ever actually get one.
there's no free lunch.

[Payne]

Ultimately, it's FREE training. I like free things, and would subscribe to such a proposal.

ECH likes unicorns, but that doesn't mean he'll ever actually get one.
there's no free lunch.

Don't patronise me.

[Elder Iptuous]

Ultimately, it's FREE training. I like free things, and would subscribe to such a proposal.

ECH likes unicorns, but that doesn't mean he'll ever actually get one.
there's no free lunch.

Don't patronise me.

patronise?   

[Golden Applesauce]

Ultimately, it's FREE training. I like free things, and would subscribe to such a proposal.

ECH likes unicorns, but that doesn't mean he'll ever actually get one.
there's no free lunch.

Don't patronise me.

patronise?   

He spells it with an s, because he's not an Amurrican.

[Elder Iptuous]

Ultimately, it's FREE training. I like free things, and would subscribe to such a proposal.

ECH likes unicorns, but that doesn't mean he'll ever actually get one.
there's no free lunch.

Don't patronise me.

patronise?   

He spells it with an s, because he's not an Amurrican.

no. not the spelling.
He made a comment, and my response was perhaps flip, but pointed to something he was sweeping under the rug.  So he said i was patronizing without speaking to the issue.

[East Coast Hustle]

you don't like the idea of people having to put in some time working for the betterment of their community?
why not?

well, what is the implied threat if they disobey?

I don't know, but if it were up to me they would be ineligible for any state or federal benefits of any kind (welfare, financial aid for school, disability, medicare, etc.) until they had completed their service. If you don't want to contribute, that's fine and it shouldn't be any sort of a crime if you don't, but you also shouldn't be able to reap material benefits from other peoples' contributions.

[Payne]

Ultimately, it's FREE training. I like free things, and would subscribe to such a proposal.

ECH likes unicorns, but that doesn't mean he'll ever actually get one.
there's no free lunch.

Don't patronise me.

patronise?   

He spells it with an s, because he's not an Amurrican.

no. not the spelling.
He made a comment, and my response was perhaps flip, but pointed to something he was sweeping under the rug.  So he said i was patronizing without speaking to the issue.

My problem with your response stems from the fact that you assumed that by "free", I meant "no strings attached". Give me some credit will you?

What the government can do for this: subsidise it so it is free (MONETARILY) for everyone who takes part. They get people who are trained to look after themselves and after their communities in times of need, and in general. The people get training in skills that normally they wouldn't receive.

The "Price" the people pay for it is their own lookout, take the money out of it and the price is whatever people make of it. (Some may call it "brainwashing" or "conditioning", which is their own lookout, I'm not going to THINK for them too. Some may see it as added responsibility, or in a myriad other ways.)

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

While I would prefer that everyone be involved with their community... I think conscription of any sort is unacceptable.

[Payne]

While I would prefer that everyone be involved with their community... I think conscription of any sort is unacceptable.

National Service |= conscription.

TIA.

[Elder Iptuous]

My problem with your response stems from the fact that you assumed that by "free", I meant "no strings attached". Give me some credit will you?

What the government can do for this: subsidise it so it is free (MONETARILY) for everyone who takes part. They get people who are trained to look after themselves and after their communities in times of need, and in general. The people get training in skills that normally they wouldn't receive.

The "Price" the people pay for it is their own lookout, take the money out of it and the price is whatever people make of it. (Some may call it "brainwashing" or "conditioning", which is their own lookout, I'm not going to THINK for them too. Some may see it as added responsibility, or in a myriad other ways.)

I'm not talking about some subtle strings of commitment of possibility of brainwashing.  I am speaking monetarily.  All services by the gov cost you monetarily.  It's not free.

Look, i'm not denying the benefits a program like this would have, but if the population requires it to be foisted upon them by threat of violence, then they deserve whatever fate befalls them if they fail to organize this cooperation on their own initiative.

[AFK]

That's why you incorporate it into high school and college education.  Community involvement and civic engagement are skills that need to be learned. 

[Payne]

Indeed. Incorporate it into existing programs, and reduce funding for unwieldy programs that are NOT delivering value for money, but cover the same kind of ground as this program would.

You'd be building redundancy into the system for little or no extra cost, and make each citizen a greater "resource" by virtue of increased skill.

[Elder Iptuous]

That's why you incorporate it into high school and college education.  Community involvement and civic engagement are skills that need to be learned. 

I'm not opposed to having some community work involved in a civics class in high school.  But what i have heard rumblings about here is in regards to statements about a civil defense force that would be funded akin to the military that will have compulsory service of everybody 18-35 years old blah blah blah.....
it kinda morphed into 'helping old people cross the street' i think.