To the undecided voters

[AFK]

Yes, but part of Jenne's argument is that everyone should vote BECAUSE rights hat we do not use are rights we risk losing. My point is that people who are adamant about other people having an obligation to vote, if they are going to use the "use it or lose it" argument, should be consistent by USING the other rights guaranteed us in the Constitution.

It's called logical consistency, bitches. Learn it.

Except that voting is an important piece of the right to own guns.  Voting for Senators, Reps, Presidents, that support your view of what "The Right to Bear Arms" means. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

yeah, if you don't vote you CAN complain...


...you'll just be a screeching idiot that no one should listen to.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also:  If you're undecided by this point, you're a dumbfuck.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oops, I'm out of time for now. I was going to go through the tread and pick out every instance where someone used intense language to indicate that non-voters and undecideds are WRONG.

[That One Guy]

I agree Nigel. I didn't like Jenne's analogy for that reason. Voting IS a right, but - just like with gun ownership - it's not a mandatory thing. The RIGHT to exercise the ability to vote (which by definition has to include the ability to NOT vote if one so chooses) is the only thing guaranteed.

I don't necessarily agree with the "use it or lose it" position. If I don't vote, do I lose the right to vote? No. I can register at any time and begin voting if I so choose. I can also, if I'm registered, choose to not vote and still be registered to vote in the future. The right to vote has no bearing on whether or not a given person votes. It merely means they have the ability to do so should they so choose.

I also agree that no one should be forced to vote, or be forced to say how or for whom they voted or are planning to vote. I agree completely that voting is a very private thing - that's why the ballots are secret and sealed. If people choose to share who they're voting for, fine. If not, also fine, at least as far as I'm concerned.

However, if someone chooses not to vote, I personally would find it hypocritical if that person then complains about what elected officials do with the  government. They had a chance to make their voice heard in the only way that really impacts politicians and didn't.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The most direct and legal ways we have of influencing the country:

1. Become a lobbyist
2. Become a community organizer/political activist
3. Become a voice that people want to follow: Religious Leader, Civic Leader, Popular Blogger etc.
4. Become a Politican, Constitutional lawyer
5. Support the ACLU and Groups Like It


And somewhere down here is Vote/Don't Vote.

All of these are ways that we can influence the direction of this country, the 5 listed will provide you with a direct and measurable effect. Voting will get you a cute little sticker... and, if you happen to have guessed right, you might even have picked the winning candidate.

[That One Guy]

Those groups all have political power because they represent groups of voters or represent the will of a portion of voters (in the case of lobbyists). If their supporters didn't vote, the politicians wouldn't listen to them.

Look at the homeless, for example. They don't vote, and it takes the lobbying on behalf of people that DO vote to get any legislation enacted on behalf of the homeless, which has to be voted on. Community activists, leaders, religious leaders, etc. organize voters that agree with their positions in order to convince politicians that it is in their best interest (IE votes for their upcoming election) to enact legislation favorable to their group.

No matter what, it all comes down to voting when dealing with government. Admittedly, the act of an individual voting does not have the same direct impact on the process, but by voting in officials favorable to the groups a voter supports they are in effect directly influencing the ability of lobbyists, community and religious organizers and leaders etc. to be able to affect legislation.

[AFK]

The most direct and legal ways we have of influencing the country:

1. Become a lobbyist
2. Become a community organizer/political activist
3. Become a voice that people want to follow: Religious Leader, Civic Leader, Popular Blogger etc.
4. Become a Politican, Constitutional lawyer
5. Support the ACLU and Groups Like It


And somewhere down here is Vote/Don't Vote.

All of these are ways that we can influence the direction of this country, the 5 listed will provide you with a direct and measurable effect. Voting will get you a cute little sticker... and, if you happen to have guessed right, you might even have picked the winning candidate.

Tell that to the handful of Floridians who gave GWB the WhiteHouse in 2000.  

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Those groups all have political power because they represent groups of voters or represent the will of a portion of voters (in the case of lobbyists). If their supporters didn't vote, the politicians wouldn't listen to them.

Look at the homeless, for example. They don't vote, and it takes the lobbying on behalf of people that DO vote to get any legislation enacted on behalf of the homeless, which has to be voted on. Community activists, leaders, religious leaders, etc. organize voters that agree with their positions in order to convince politicians that it is in their best interest (IE votes for their upcoming election) to enact legislation favorable to their group.

No matter what, it all comes down to voting when dealing with government. Admittedly, the act of an individual voting does not have the same direct impact on the process, but by voting in officials favorable to the groups a voter supports they are in effect directly influencing the ability of lobbyists, community and religious organizers and leaders etc. to be able to affect legislation.

All of that is true. My point was not that voting overall is unimportant... just that one personal vote is not the most direct and legal way of influencing the country. If a person wants to influence their country... and they vote once every four years, they're not really doing much at all to influence anything. They're a single statistic, a Yea or Nay lost in a cacophony. If you want to influence the direction of this nation, you act, you organize, or hit the streets and you fight... and you vote. If you want to think you're influencing the country, but you don't actually want to do any work, you can punch a touch screen every four years, and crow.

[AFK]

Of course many of us who are in the trenches do both.  Because as TOG says, the votes do matter.  For example in my state we just had a question about rescinding a tax on beer, wine, and soda.  In fact, I was one of the people who lobbied to get that tax in place.  And that was important work and did have a direct influence.  However, once the initiative came up to repeal that measure, it was also just as important to cast my vote opposing it.  I would've been derelict in my duty if I went through all that and then didn't cast a vote to help protect it. 

[That One Guy]

Those groups all have political power because they represent groups of voters or represent the will of a portion of voters (in the case of lobbyists). If their supporters didn't vote, the politicians wouldn't listen to them.

Look at the homeless, for example. They don't vote, and it takes the lobbying on behalf of people that DO vote to get any legislation enacted on behalf of the homeless, which has to be voted on. Community activists, leaders, religious leaders, etc. organize voters that agree with their positions in order to convince politicians that it is in their best interest (IE votes for their upcoming election) to enact legislation favorable to their group.

No matter what, it all comes down to voting when dealing with government. Admittedly, the act of an individual voting does not have the same direct impact on the process, but by voting in officials favorable to the groups a voter supports they are in effect directly influencing the ability of lobbyists, community and religious organizers and leaders etc. to be able to affect legislation.

All of that is true. My point was not that voting overall is unimportant... just that one personal vote is not the most direct and legal way of influencing the country. If a person wants to influence their country... and they vote once every four years, they're not really doing much at all to influence anything. They're a single statistic, a Yea or Nay lost in a cacophony. If you want to influence the direction of this nation, you act, you organize, or hit the streets and you fight... and you vote. If you want to think you're influencing the country, but you don't actually want to do any work, you can punch a touch screen every four years, and crow.

That's indeed true - I'm just emphasizing that the lobbyists and organizers have to have people vote in order to give them the power to influence the politicians and actually impact the government. While a person that only votes once every four years isn't doing much to impact the government, they're still having more of an impact than someone that didn't vote at all.

While the organizers and lobbyists have the most direct influence, they get that by representing a larger group of voters. Without that representation the lobbyists/etc. will find it far more difficult to influence government. Also, voters without lobbyists to represent them will also find it far more difficult to influence government.

While the organizers and lobbyists are most directly involved, they need the voters behind them (ideally, admittedly - bribery does but shouldn't enter in to this) in order to influence the politicians.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Of course many of us who are in the trenches do both.  Because as TOG says, the votes do matter.  For example in my state we just had a question about rescinding a tax on beer, wine, and soda.  In fact, I was one of the people who lobbied to get that tax in place.  And that was important work and did have a direct influence.  However, once the initiative came up to repeal that measure, it was also just as important to cast my vote opposing it.  I would've been derelict in my duty if I went through all that and then didn't cast a vote to help protect it. 

And, if instead... you had grudging wandered over to the polls and seen a line that said:

"Would you like to give the government more money just cause you bought a soda or beer?"
Yes____  No____

Would you have voted Yes or No?

If we think EVERYONE SHOULD VOTE... then we're telling GA, she's got to check yes or no above.

I mean, if I didn't know specifically what that tax was for I would probably vote against it. Taxing food or drinks is stupid IMO, especially when its only select items, based on what some group of people think is a luxury or sin.


OMGZ! YUO DRINK WINE? PAY MORE TO THE GOVERNMENT NAO, YOU DRUNK ASS!

[Vene]

BREAKING NEWS:

I didn't vote, but Obama won anyway!

Also, my state didn't pass any constitutional amendments institutionalizing bigotry!

ITT, you list how much more effective you were for having voted.

Okay, Proposition 2 barely passed in my state.  I voted for it.

(Ignores the gun discussion)
If somebody doesn't want to vote, I don't care.  But, if you actually care about an issue and don't vote, I tend to get confused.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If somebody doesn't want to vote, I don't care.  But, if you actually care about an issue and don't vote, I tend to get confused.

I vote that Vene is driving the correct motorcycle 

[Jenne]

I'll just say this because I think I've made my point rather well here already--I guess I care too  much for some in this forum, and that drives them to call me hypocrite (something I probably am, but not in this), which actually pisses me off quite a bit.  I don't think I've called anyone in this thread anything other than lazy.

Hypocrite is a big, mean word and it was meant to be big and mean.

So in that spirit, I'll just say FUCK YUO.

If you don't believe in "civic (NOT PATRIOTIC FUCK OFF) duty", then so be it.  I can't force anyone to vote, but I don't condone not voting.  GA, if you're just trolling, congrats, you pushed a button.  I don't have many of them, but yes, this is one of them.  I admitted freely how close I am to people like my father in prison who will never vote again, my immigrant husband who had to fight for citizenship to do so, and his whole famdamnily who is even now struggling to get citizenship here to do so.

So, ha ha hee he ho ho you pulled one over on Jenne.  Congratufuckinglations.

At the end of it though, it's always a choice, and that's the pure beauty of it, there's no conscription, there's no jailing for not doing so.  Makes me glad to be here, still, and believe me, there's not much about being HERE that makes me glad.

As of now, I'm out of this thread.  Flame away, Nigel--you didn't get constructive with your commentary til I left.  So, I'll leave you do it.