What do you REALLY believe?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Rat I assure you I have NO idea what your talking about

sounds more like ritualistic spiritualism to me... almost like native American shamanism (its a poor example I know)

As I was saying to Cram in IRC I could only take magic for its dictionary term, its the only understanding of it I know... and that doesn`t seem to qualify

Ok, let's back up.

Magic, in the sense I use it, draws from Crowley, Chaos Magic, Metamagic and Memetic Magic.

Crowley said that magic was "Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will"

Hell, for Crowley any conscious act of will was a manifestation of Magic. To put it another way, magic, for Crowley was when the Robot was not in charge.

So, the idea is that magic is a loosely related set of tools which you can use to cause changes in conformity with your Will. In some cases those may be external. I use 'magic' on co-workers all the time... some people might say I manipulate them into agreeing with my point of view, but thats so icky sounding . Though in most cases, it appears that the general changes are to the Magicians own BiP... However, modifying your BiP, in and of itself may have external effects.

The biggest difference between something like ritual spiritualism or Shamanism is a philosophical one. A spiritualist believes that they have evoked a squirrel spirit. a Shaman, might think something else. A magician from the schools I've studied, doesn't necessarily have any view that 'spirits' exist. Rather, it might be a manifestation of Will, or a subroutine programmed into the subconscious.

Magic, as studied in the past even before Crowley appears to have much more to do with this sort of thing, than any nonsense about binding people to do no harm or talking with the dead. Even old venerable manuscripts like Abremelin the Mage seem to live in a subsystem far more closely allied with what I'm talking about here, than any hocus pocus mumbo jumbo spell casting, love potions etc.

My current favorite position on Magic is that its is a useful set of tools which people have used to modify their Black Iron Prison. Most of these appear to be psychological. Bob Wilson seemed to hold that view, Israel Regardie (one of Crowley's students) claimed that same view as being his and AC's (see the book "The Middle Pillar", in the forward). Lon Milo Duquette argues a similar tack and uses freemason rituals to show the same basic tools at use, though modern masons, in his view have no real understanding of WHY they do what they do. Antero Ali in "Towards and Archeology of the Soul" tears apart as many magical/belief systems as possible, finds the similarities and tries to make it work with no metaphors/symbols except those useful for the specific magician.

The thing I found most interesting as I studied magic was that it does appear to be repeatable and observable in some sense. However, it isn't consistent among every person and confirmation bias, etc may well play a part. However, they do seem to be USEFUL. Many of the things I've tried have been followed by events which could count as results. I think this sort of Magic was what RAW was thinking of when he coined one of my favorite phrases:

Reality is what you can get away with, If you can't get away with it, it just ain't real.

From then on, I would generally hear a loud chittering noise and have time to hide the bong and put on pants before someone pulled into the parking area. Since then I've tried different models to explain it and I have a few ideas... but the methods I used were the same methods other people used and the outcome was similar to their outcome. Correlation I can see, causation I'm still unsure of.

What do you mean by this? My dogs bark every time someone pulls into the driveway, but I'm pretty sure they aren't magic.

Ah, but I assume that your dog actually exists, correct? The squirrel, as far as observable reality is concerned, didn't exist.

[fomenter]

i liked rats description of magic he has done i have always taken magic experiences to be an sign post to the understanding he came to in this sentence

Since then I've tried different models to explain it and I have a few ideas...

the event and the ritual to get it has little or no meaning in and of itself it happens as a guidepost to the model agnostic revelation that follows .. that tree may have always had a chattering squirrel living in it and the ritual (a tool(in this case a useful one)) took a blinder off his perception and moved it into the "notice this" range.

[BabylonHoruv]

Other than the 23, why is 2/3 "where magic is most effective"?

I got that range from Liber Kaos by Peter Carroll.  There's several pages of math regarding the level of magical energy surrounding it, but as far as I can tell it is based on his direct observations and so far it has matched fairly well with my own observations.  Although in re reading the book to find the graph i found that the range is a bit more generous than I had though, .5 to .7, which is more like 1 half to 2/3  however, as i said, I'm nt the best magician in the world, or close to it, so 2/3 isw going to be closer to my own zone of maximum result.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

i liked rats description of magic he has done i have always taken magic experiences to be an sign post to the understanding he came to in this sentence

Since then I've tried different models to explain it and I have a few ideas...

the event and the ritual to get it has little or no meaning in and of itself it happens as a guidepost to the model agnostic revelation that follows .. that tree may have always had a chattering squirrel living in it and the ritual (a tool(in this case a useful one)) took a blinder off his perception and moved it into the "notice this" range.

One of my favorite explanations was that perhaps, at the edge of my senses I could hear gravel crunch under the wheels of a car when they turned down our driveway. It went unnoticed for a long time, until I told my brain to pay attention. Then my brain made me think of squirrels chattering whenever it caught that crunch.

Side note, I personally have never found magic to be useful in guessing dice rolls, card draws etc. I am interested to see if BH has any success.

[Chairman Risus]

From then on, I would generally hear a loud chittering noise and have time to hide the bong and put on pants before someone pulled into the parking area. Since then I've tried different models to explain it and I have a few ideas... but the methods I used were the same methods other people used and the outcome was similar to their outcome. Correlation I can see, causation I'm still unsure of.

What do you mean by this? My dogs bark every time someone pulls into the driveway, but I'm pretty sure they aren't magic.

Ah, but I assume that your dog actually exists, correct? The squirrel, as far as observable reality is concerned, didn't exist.

But you apparently have enough of them to find the skull of one in your yard, while there are tons in my yard and I have never seen a dead one lying around, save for roadkill.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

From then on, I would generally hear a loud chittering noise and have time to hide the bong and put on pants before someone pulled into the parking area. Since then I've tried different models to explain it and I have a few ideas... but the methods I used were the same methods other people used and the outcome was similar to their outcome. Correlation I can see, causation I'm still unsure of.

What do you mean by this? My dogs bark every time someone pulls into the driveway, but I'm pretty sure they aren't magic.

Ah, but I assume that your dog actually exists, correct? The squirrel, as far as observable reality is concerned, didn't exist.

But you apparently have enough of them to find the skull of one in your yard, while there are tons in my yard and I have never seen a dead one lying around, save for roadkill.

So are you saying that a real squirrel outside was chattering in my head? The noise was not external... that is, it didn't sound like a squirrel in a tree gibbering... it was a loud and clear noise in my head... or at least I think it was in my head. Sorry if that wasn't clearly stated at first.

[Thurnez Isa]

like I repeatedly said if it's internal it's different, and it's probably something I will never understand
but if it's an external force that could effect something which could measured... that's a totally different matter all together

[Thurnez Isa]

From then on, I would generally hear a loud chittering noise and have time to hide the bong and put on pants before someone pulled into the parking area. Since then I've tried different models to explain it and I have a few ideas... but the methods I used were the same methods other people used and the outcome was similar to their outcome. Correlation I can see, causation I'm still unsure of.

What do you mean by this? My dogs bark every time someone pulls into the driveway, but I'm pretty sure they aren't magic.

Ah, but I assume that your dog actually exists, correct? The squirrel, as far as observable reality is concerned, didn't exist.

But you apparently have enough of them to find the skull of one in your yard, while there are tons in my yard and I have never seen a dead one lying around, save for roadkill.

THATS BECAUSE THEY JUST DIE IN HIS YARD APPARENTLY

[Chairman Risus]

From then on, I would generally hear a loud chittering noise and have time to hide the bong and put on pants before someone pulled into the parking area. Since then I've tried different models to explain it and I have a few ideas... but the methods I used were the same methods other people used and the outcome was similar to their outcome. Correlation I can see, causation I'm still unsure of.

What do you mean by this? My dogs bark every time someone pulls into the driveway, but I'm pretty sure they aren't magic.

Ah, but I assume that your dog actually exists, correct? The squirrel, as far as observable reality is concerned, didn't exist.

But you apparently have enough of them to find the skull of one in your yard, while there are tons in my yard and I have never seen a dead one lying around, save for roadkill.

So are you saying that a real squirrel outside was chattering in my head? The noise was not external... that is, it didn't sound like a squirrel in a tree gibbering... it was a loud and clear noise in my head... or at least I think it was in my head. Sorry if that wasn't clearly stated at first.

That clears it up a little.

So, the idea is that magic is a loosely related set of tools which you can use to cause changes in conformity with your Will. In some cases those may be external. I use 'magic' on co-workers all the time... some people might say I manipulate them into agreeing with my point of view, but thats so icky sounding . Though in most cases, it appears that the general changes are to the Magicians own BiP... However, modifying your BiP, in and of itself may have external effects.

Can you give an example of a bar and how you could modify it?

[fomenter]

One of my favorite explanations was that perhaps, at the edge of my senses I could hear gravel crunch under the wheels of a car when they turned down our driveway. It went unnoticed for a long time, until I told my brain to pay attention. Then my brain made me think of squirrels chattering whenever it caught that crunch.

Side note, I personally have never found magic to be useful in guessing dice rolls, card draws etc. I am interested to see if BH has any success.

same here it has only ever been a tool to alter perception and come to realizations about the nature of perception, i have never had luck with card guessing dice rolling either.  

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

From then on, I would generally hear a loud chittering noise and have time to hide the bong and put on pants before someone pulled into the parking area. Since then I've tried different models to explain it and I have a few ideas... but the methods I used were the same methods other people used and the outcome was similar to their outcome. Correlation I can see, causation I'm still unsure of.

What do you mean by this? My dogs bark every time someone pulls into the driveway, but I'm pretty sure they aren't magic.

Ah, but I assume that your dog actually exists, correct? The squirrel, as far as observable reality is concerned, didn't exist.

But you apparently have enough of them to find the skull of one in your yard, while there are tons in my yard and I have never seen a dead one lying around, save for roadkill.

So are you saying that a real squirrel outside was chattering in my head? The noise was not external... that is, it didn't sound like a squirrel in a tree gibbering... it was a loud and clear noise in my head... or at least I think it was in my head. Sorry if that wasn't clearly stated at first.

That clears it up a little.

So, the idea is that magic is a loosely related set of tools which you can use to cause changes in conformity with your Will. In some cases those may be external. I use 'magic' on co-workers all the time... some people might say I manipulate them into agreeing with my point of view, but thats so icky sounding . Though in most cases, it appears that the general changes are to the Magicians own BiP... However, modifying your BiP, in and of itself may have external effects.

Can you give an example of a bar and how you could modify it?

Sure.

When I came out of the JW system... that had been all I had ever known. Every aspect of my BiP was saturated with the JW view. Even though I had recoginized their system as false, the bars were still all there. The reason I invoked Therion, was that he was representative of raw male power. At one time I was very shy, especially around girls. I had dated one girl and married her. I thought any sort of wild sex was a terrible ideas, drugs scared the hell out of me and I considered myself ugly, scrawny and stupid (no college rode hard in my mind).

So, based on what I read, I needed to invoke my masculinity. I needed to break free from this false prison. During the ritual I left my body and the ritual location, I was on a hill in a field somewhere... and when I looked at my arms they were covered in tawny fur. I could see in many directions at once as though I had multiple heads and while involved in this a woman appeared. She was Babelon, or at least that's what I said in my head, and we had sex. In reality, this was all part of the ritual... in my head this was completely real.

From that day on, my view of myself changed dramatically. I became the assertive, opinionated asshole you know today I no longer think I'm ugly or uneducated, my views on sex, drugs etc etc have done a 180 and within weeks I was in orgies, became a swinger and have had all sorts of awesome experiences with beautiful women.

Would that have happened anyway? Probably over time, or maybe not to the extent it has... I dunno. But for me, that was one of the most powerful 'breaking free of the BiP' experiences I've had. It felt like I had broken free, it felt like the old me crumbled when Therion possessed me and this new me rose from the experience.

Maybe all of that is in my head, but then the whole BiP is in there too, so maybe that works

[LMNO]

Other than the 23, why is 2/3 "where magic is most effective"?

I got that range from Liber Kaos by Peter Carroll.  There's several pages of math regarding the level of magical energy surrounding it, but as far as I can tell it is based on his direct observations and so far it has matched fairly well with my own observations.  Although in re reading the book to find the graph i found that the range is a bit more generous than I had though, .5 to .7, which is more like 1 half to 2/3  however, as i said, I'm nt the best magician in the world, or close to it, so 2/3 isw going to be closer to my own zone of maximum result.

Starting a new thread for this.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21358.msg722072#msg722072

[Cramulus]

I want you to know that your question - about what model you use to describe a multi-model universe - has been eating me today


I guess my best answer so far is: I don't know anything with enough certainty to answer that question


I checked off Agnostic on the survey ITT.


If I didn't have that option, and I had to answer, I think I'd put my money on scientific materialism. But I have to fall back on the e-prime... I think I'd go with scientific materialsm today. There have been times in my life where I would have filled out the test differently.

I try out beliefs for a little while and see how they work, but that agnosticism is always nagging in the back of the head, easily silenced, but still there. I was a straight-up sun worshipper for a while, but most of the time it was "I'm a joke sun worshipper." Maybe once or twice I was actually in the headspace. And only for a little.

I have to wonder if agnosticism is a dead end in that respect. After you realize that every model is flawed, can you really use those models again?


AFTER AGNOSTICISM, WHAT'S LEFT?

[fomenter]

I want you to know that your question - about what model you use to describe a multi-model universe - has been eating me today
I guess my best answer so far is: I don't know anything with enough certainty to answer that question
I checked off Agnostic on the survey ITT.
If I didn't have that option, and I had to answer, I think I'd put my money on scientific materialism. But I have to fall back on the e-prime... I think I'd go with scientific materialsm today. There have been times in my life where I would have filled out the test differently.
I try out beliefs for a little while and see how they work, but that agnosticism is always nagging in the back of the head, easily silenced, but still there. I was a straight-up sun worshipper for a while, but most of the time it was "I'm a joke sun worshipper." Maybe once or twice I was actually in the headspace. And only for a little.

I have to wonder if agnosticism is a dead end in that respect. After you realize that every model is flawed, can you really use those models again?

AFTER AGNOSTICISM, WHAT'S LEFT?

model agnostic?
if pressed for a definition i would give that as my answer (i might e prime it as well and ad at this point in time) all models are flawed and limited but if you add  relativity into it "this model seems to me at this point in time to be the most accurate or the most useful"... or that's what i am thinking right now as i post this anyway..

[LMNO]

Cram, I know what you mean, which is why I've been crap at describing it today.

It reminds me of some weird math thing... "The model that contains all models", and shit like that. Hofsteader?