DISCORDIANISM: NO SUCH THING

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I hadn't heard that before, it's something to chew on.  However, saying it much after the fact doesn't lend it a ton of credit for me... I still can't find a contemporary source for the name.  As cool as Krassner is (and was) he doesn't seem to feature large in a lot of the Yippie writings, hell, he wasn't even one of the Chicago Seven.

But, I can't rule it out, so thank you for finding that. 

No problem.

I think you're right for the most part, that YIP was very different from hippie culture in important ways. But, if they all did agree to the "Yippie" name, as it does seem, then they shot themselves in the foot. The idea was probably to make themselves look less threatening and to benefit from the growing popularity of the hippies at the time.

[hooplala]

Quite true.  Probably very few of them stopped to consider what the term "hippie" might represent 40 years later.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, and to be honest, even the Hippie movement wasn't just unwashed angsty teens that were stoned and having sex while fighting the man...


ok I couldn't say that with a straight face!


However, at the time, the Hippie movement had some real emotional content... it was a very suductive meme and one the YIP probably thought it could ride in on. However well it might have worked then, its got an opposite effect (based on the meme) today. Interesting.

[hooplala]

I would think it was also a way of co-opting the media's idea of hippies with their own agenda... by using the name "Yippie" they sounds less threatening, and in some ways are (Pigasus), but in some ways are more threatening as well... at some points there weren't a lot of differences between what the Yippies were preaching from what the Weathermen were preaching.

[Triple Zero]

I know how easily statistics can be manipulated, but I thought that a recent WHO study found that 20some% of teens in Amsterdam smoked while 40some% of teens in the US smoked.

just for reference, i'd like to point out kids from age 16 are allowed to drink alcohol in NL (like beer, but no "strong" liquor >20% until they're 18).

buying cannabis in a coffeeshop is not allowed before 18.

(and they're not allowed to get their drivers license until they're 18--not that that's relevant, probably)

As far as using it because it is illegal.  Of course some will experiment with it out of some form of rebellion.  Teens by their nature are risk-takers, of course.  However, I believe there is a firmer link between availability and use.  Just look at the recent trend in Rx drug abuse.  A lot of that comes from kids raiding Grandma's medicine cabinet, or sneaking a couple of pills out of their Mom's bottle of pain meds, or snagging a couple of pills from a friend at school.  It's because it's there.

and, sorry that i don't have any reference for this, but I'm pretty sure Rx abuse is way less in the netherlands (merely judging from the crazy stories i hear from the US--getting high on cough medicine, seriously? i couldnt believe it when i heard it first).

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

As far as using it because it is illegal.  Of course some will experiment with it out of some form of rebellion.  Teens by their nature are risk-takers, of course.  However, I believe there is a firmer link between availability and use.  Just look at the recent trend in Rx drug abuse.  A lot of that comes from kids raiding Grandma's medicine cabinet, or sneaking a couple of pills out of their Mom's bottle of pain meds, or snagging a couple of pills from a friend at school.  It's because it's there.  

There's something to that, but that's not the whole story.

If my memory serves me, when Netherlands made cannabis legal there was a temporary increase in usage. But, it quickly came down—and stayed lower than per capita usage in the US.

It seems to suggest that if it's suddenly widely available, people will try it out of curiosity and those that enjoy it will continue using it. 

I can dig up that reference if you want it.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

there are cultural reasons why drug use varies between countries, too. we can't just assume that the current policies enforced by the countries' respective governments are solely responsible for the levels of drug use seen in those countries.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

also, i don't understand why marijuana is supposed to be terrible when its effects are different but no worse than alcohol, which is not only socially acceptable but expected behavior. this is completely ridiculous. i also think that addiction should be treated like a disease, not a crime.

[Jenne]

also, i don't understand why marijuana is supposed to be terrible when its effects are different but no worse than alcohol, which is not only socially acceptable but expected behavior. this is completely ridiculous. i also think that addiction should be treated like a disease, not a crime.

It was classified during the Nixon years, when War on Drugs became the the war Nixon thought he could win.

So it was classified with LSD, etc. due to lack of general knowledge of the folks doing the classification. In other words:  no one knew how much money could be made off of it at the time, nor how "harmless" it really was.

[AFK]

also, i don't understand why marijuana is supposed to be terrible when its effects are different but no worse than alcohol, which is not only socially acceptable but expected behavior. this is completely ridiculous. i also think that addiction should be treated like a disease, not a crime.

Well, for my side of things, addiction is treated like a disease, not a crime.  But also, there are elements in law enforcement and the legal system that are trying to do the same.  I mentioned the drug court system earlier, where first time or non-violent offenders are diverted and put into a situation where they can get treatment to avoid jail time.  And I will admit, it is a very stiff challenge when it comes to marijuana.  Because it is true that it doesn't have the dangerous effects that drugs like cocaine, meth, or heroin have.  However, I've seen where it can have bad enough effects on adolescents, that if we can somehow keep it out of a few of their hands, I truly believe it is worth keeping it illegal.  I know I and my colleagues can't save all of them, but, I think we can save a few of them.   

[AFK]

As far as using it because it is illegal.  Of course some will experiment with it out of some form of rebellion.  Teens by their nature are risk-takers, of course.  However, I believe there is a firmer link between availability and use.  Just look at the recent trend in Rx drug abuse.  A lot of that comes from kids raiding Grandma's medicine cabinet, or sneaking a couple of pills out of their Mom's bottle of pain meds, or snagging a couple of pills from a friend at school.  It's because it's there.  

There's something to that, but that's not the whole story.

If my memory serves me, when Netherlands made cannabis legal there was a temporary increase in usage. But, it quickly came down—and stayed lower than per capita usage in the US.

It seems to suggest that if it's suddenly widely available, people will try it out of curiosity and those that enjoy it will continue using it. 

I can dig up that reference if you want it.

Yes, but again, my charge is the prevention of substance abuse amongst adolescents, not adults.  It's the "those adolescents that enjoy it will continue using it" that I'm trying to prevent. 

[Triple Zero]

also, i don't understand why marijuana is supposed to be terrible when its effects are different but no worse than alcohol, which is not only socially acceptable but expected behavior. this is completely ridiculous. i also think that addiction should be treated like a disease, not a crime.

Well, for my side of things, addiction is treated like a disease, not a crime.  But also, there are elements in law enforcement and the legal system that are trying to do the same.  I mentioned the drug court system earlier, where first time or non-violent offenders are diverted and put into a situation where they can get treatment to avoid jail time.  And I will admit, it is a very stiff challenge when it comes to marijuana.  Because it is true that it doesn't have the dangerous effects that drugs like cocaine, meth, or heroin have.  However, I've seen where it can have bad enough effects on adolescents, that if we can somehow keep it out of a few of their hands, I truly believe it is worth keeping it illegal.  I know I and my colleagues can't save all of them, but, I think we can save a few of them.

so, according to that line of reasoning, the only reason why alcohol is not worth being made illegal is because it is currently legal, and i suppose too deeply engrained in our culture?

[AFK]

It would be a great waste of time and resources to make any kind of push to re-criminalize alcohol.  I know I certainly have no desire to do so.  Even if I wanted to (and I don't), there's no way THAT toothpaste is ever going back in the tube, whether it is right or wrong.  It's just not going to happen.  We are better served using that energy for prevention and treatment of addiction.  We spent a lot of time and energy for the last couple of years trying to get a tax on beer and liquor in my state to help fund a State-run insurance program.  Additionally, there is some research that suggests some consumption patterns are sensitive to price.  We've seen it with the hike in prices of cigarrettes.  The idea is that perhaps we could apply that model to alcohol.  In the end, the tax was passed but then this past election a referendum was put up to repeal that tax, and it passed.  So, all that time spent, for nothing. 

[tyrannosaurus vex]

So, RWHN, what I'm reading from you here is that lives that have been disrupted and destroyed due to an overbearing government and its moral-crusader drug laws are somehow less valuable than the relatively few lives that have been disrupted and destroyed due to marijuana use.

I commend any sentiment that seeks to protect youth from the follies of addiction and chemical abuse. But I have to question the motives behind those who would rely on government intervention in private lives to try to solve problems. I have no doubt that you and the people you work with have the greater good in mind, and I appreciate everyone in my area who does the job that you do. But I still have to ask why drugs are such a high-profile problem. In my experience people will destroy themselves if they're going to, one way or another. Making something illegal doesn't even give them pause.

And if we were going to go around passing laws against everything that has resulted in damage to someone, we'd be pretty fucked. Why is it that more people are killed and maimed on the highway every year than in drug overdoses, but the transportation system isn't a "blight on society?"

Ultimately drug laws do nothing in the long-term to curb the appetite or demand for drugs. What they do very successfully however is to punish and harass people who don't fit in, and prohibit the use of something that is no different from anything else in that too much of it is a bad thing, while creating a wide-open foothold for the forces of totalitarianism into the private lives of anyone who might be a subversive element, whether they're addicts or not -- because I'm sure you've seen it the same as I have, people will assume that outcasts and non-joiners must be on something illegal to not want to fit in with the other homogenized zombies.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I have to agree with Vex. The current status of marijuana as a Class 1 substance has led to many, many lives being harmed. It may be that some kids would like to try marijuana, but don't due to its status as an illegal drug... However, it seems to me that the number is probably much smaller than the 872,721 people arrested for marijuana related charges in 2007 alone. Almost half of all drug arrests are now marijuana related... that's entirely insane and IMO its doing great harm to hundreds of thousands of people, and in some cases, their families as well.

I don't recommend that adolescents smoke pot. I think its a bad idea base don what I've seen happen to kids that smoke pot a lot... However, the current system in place seems far more focused on punishing everyone than helping kids.