Return to roots.

[LMNO]

I'd like to meet a Discordian Muslim.  Especially an Is'maili.  I have a proposition concerning the Aga Khan and the resumption of old traditions.

Five bucks says that most Discordian Muslims are (would be) Sufis.

[Cain]

I'd like to meet a Discordian Muslim.  Especially an Is'maili.  I have a proposition concerning the Aga Khan and the resumption of old traditions.

Five bucks says that most Discordian Muslims are (would be) Sufis.

Sufis suck.

ATTN SUFIS: YOU SUCK.  START KILLING PEOPLE, LIKE THE IS'MAILIS, AND MAYBE MORE PEOPLE WILL PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR LITTLE POETRY AND DANCE SESSIONS.  YEAH, I WENT THERE.

[LMNO]

 

(now picture them doing that in circles.)

[Cramulus]

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Pretty sure it was evident in my post that I was admitting that I didn't know much about UU.

... then maybe you should shut your ignorant yap and go do some basic research?

[zen_magick]

   for the OP

nice, Kai

z_m

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Wait, combine UU with discordianism?

Hmm....

"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"

Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.

Schmuck Assumption #1

UU don't generally go for blind or unquestioning faith.
UU don't always think a big imaginary person exists.

UU seems to be a collection of members of various other religions/faiths that gather together under a different name/church for various reasons (if I'm wrong here, then let me know what it is instead). Most world religions believe in the existence of either a all-powerful being(s) or something more of a unifying force, which is really mostly the same thing only with less personification and/or direct control(feel free to argue against that if you want, and if so feel free to provide example religions). UU appears to pull actively from this, as stated in their bylaws
 

  The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:

    * Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
    * Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion and the transforming power of love;
    * Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
    * Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
    * Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
    * Spiritual teachings of Earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

Since such a thing, by it's default nature, can neither be proven or disproved, and since no scientific evidence can be gathered to support its existance, it falls more into the blind faith category.

I'd be happy to debate this further if you like, but I hardly see how this falls into the Schmuck Assumption category.

Ah, well then in that case I must be mistaken. You are apparently not a Cosmic Schmuck at all. Obviously your interpretation of a Webpage, rather than actual interaction with UU members is sufficient for you to pierce the veil and see the truth of the matter. It's good to know that this isn't simply your opinion based on a cursory glance at something you'd never looked at before.

Sure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on

Schmuck Assumption #2
Not all Discordians agree that organized religion is a bad thing. There are Discordian Christians, Discordian Wiccans, Discordian Thelemics, Discordian Druids, Discordian Muslims and that's just Discordians that I've met.

True, it was a bit of a schmuck assumption to think that there was anything discordians can agree on. Of course, since you can find examples falling outside the norm for any group and behavior, I don't see how this invalidates the existence of at least a general disagreement between discordianism and organized religion. Beyond that point, just because someone identifies themselves as a member of a religion doesn't mean that person actually agrees with everything about it. I have met plenty of people over the years on and the board here even that will take a moniker associated with an organized religion due to believing in the underlying beliefs but at the same time will be disgusted with that religion as an organization and want nothing to do with it.

Ah, so your experience with some Discordians are enough to make intelligent assumptions about all Discordians, except for the few fringe idiots.... good to know you're not being a schmuck about this.

These are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.

This is nothing like any UU belief I've ever encountered. Therefore, I'm gonna consider it likely to be Schmuck Assumption  #3.

This is one that I'm not in a position to defend and I fully admit that I could have been out of line with. Since I have never attended a UU service, I can't know what tactics they try to employ, therefore have no idea if they do go for the good afterlife/bad afterlife way of trying to influence belief that many religions are so fond of. I admit that I pulled a schmuck assumption here due to the UU website touting it's origins while leaving most information regarding its current beliefs outside of the 7 main bullets buried deeper in the site. I would like to think of this as an honest mistake due to being mislead by the UU site, but I'm not going to try to fight for that.

I coould keep going but that's not useful. I hope these few examples show you exactly what I meant about assumptions that perhaps were due to the CS principle. But, perhaps you're one of the few who are never Cosmic Schmucks...

I wouldn't say never, as on a long enough timeline we all will take part in being one.

Indeed..... 

[Rev Thwack]

Wait, combine UU with discordianism?

Hmm....

"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"

Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.

Schmuck Assumption #1

UU don't generally go for blind or unquestioning faith.
UU don't always think a big imaginary person exists.

UU seems to be a collection of members of various other religions/faiths that gather together under a different name/church for various reasons (if I'm wrong here, then let me know what it is instead). Most world religions believe in the existence of either a all-powerful being(s) or something more of a unifying force, which is really mostly the same thing only with less personification and/or direct control(feel free to argue against that if you want, and if so feel free to provide example religions). UU appears to pull actively from this, as stated in their bylaws
 

  The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:

    * Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
    * Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion and the transforming power of love;
    * Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
    * Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
    * Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
    * Spiritual teachings of Earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

Since such a thing, by it's default nature, can neither be proven or disproved, and since no scientific evidence can be gathered to support its existance, it falls more into the blind faith category.

I'd be happy to debate this further if you like, but I hardly see how this falls into the Schmuck Assumption category.

Ah, well then in that case I must be mistaken. You are apparently not a Cosmic Schmuck at all. Obviously your interpretation of a Webpage, rather than actual interaction with UU members is sufficient for you to pierce the veil and see the truth of the matter. It's good to know that this isn't simply your opinion based on a cursory glance at something you'd never looked at before.

So you're trying to say it's wrong to draw a conclusion about an organization based upon what it says about itself on its official web site, what it says in its founding documents, and what other people in this thread who are members of this organization have said about it? You know, if that's true in this case, then UU might want to do a better job trying to put true information out there regarding their beliefs and values. Could also be helpful if you decided to actually mention how/where I was wrong instead of just saying 'nope, try again schmuck'.

Sure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on

Schmuck Assumption #2
Not all Discordians agree that organized religion is a bad thing. There are Discordian Christians, Discordian Wiccans, Discordian Thelemics, Discordian Druids, Discordian Muslims and that's just Discordians that I've met.

True, it was a bit of a schmuck assumption to think that there was anything discordians can agree on. Of course, since you can find examples falling outside the norm for any group and behavior, I don't see how this invalidates the existence of at least a general disagreement between discordianism and organized religion. Beyond that point, just because someone identifies themselves as a member of a religion doesn't mean that person actually agrees with everything about it. I have met plenty of people over the years on and the board here even that will take a moniker associated with an organized religion due to believing in the underlying beliefs but at the same time will be disgusted with that religion as an organization and want nothing to do with it.

Ah, so your experience with some Discordians are enough to make intelligent assumptions about all Discordians, except for the few fringe idiots.... good to know you're not being a schmuck about this.

And your experience with some is a better ground to make intelligent assumptions to the contrary?

These are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.

This is nothing like any UU belief I've ever encountered. Therefore, I'm gonna consider it likely to be Schmuck Assumption  #3.

This is one that I'm not in a position to defend and I fully admit that I could have been out of line with. Since I have never attended a UU service, I can't know what tactics they try to employ, therefore have no idea if they do go for the good afterlife/bad afterlife way of trying to influence belief that many religions are so fond of. I admit that I pulled a schmuck assumption here due to the UU website touting it's origins while leaving most information regarding its current beliefs outside of the 7 main bullets buried deeper in the site. I would like to think of this as an honest mistake due to being mislead by the UU site, but I'm not going to try to fight for that.

I coould keep going but that's not useful. I hope these few examples show you exactly what I meant about assumptions that perhaps were due to the CS principle. But, perhaps you're one of the few who are never Cosmic Schmucks...

I wouldn't say never, as on a long enough timeline we all will take part in being one.

Indeed..... 

So tell me, considering that I've actually been finding supporting information, clarifying my arguments and standings, and addressing (the few) points brought up by people arguing against my statements, are you really going to be egotistical enough to try and say I'm the only one being a cosmic schmuck in this thread?

If someone has an issue with the accuracy of something I've brought up in this thread, I'd really like to hear it. And no, I don't just mean the "you're wrong, schmuck" and "go fuck yourself" type responses I've been getting, but something that will actually bring some sort of evidence to a specific point I'm wrong about. Just telling someone they are wrong on something without actually doing anything to prove it isn't helpful when they are trying to gain a deeper understanding on a subject, which I wanted to do when this all first started. Right now it's just starting to seem that UU members can't take any kind of jab/criticism of the church and can't be bothered to actually let people know what the hell it's about when they've got the wrong idea.

[Cramulus]

If someone has an issue with the accuracy of something I've brought up in this thread, I'd really like to hear it. And no, I don't just mean the "you're wrong, schmuck" and "go fuck yourself" type responses I've been getting, but something that will actually bring some sort of evidence to a specific point I'm wrong about.

are we reading the same thread? people have been discussing and explaining what you're wrong about. Nobody's said "fuck you", though they have suggested that you're asking questions out of ignorance and ignoring the answers you don't like. I guess you're taking Ratatosk's Cosmic Shmuck comment as an insult, so you clearly missed the point of it. I thought he pointed out pretty clearly where your misaligned assumptions were.

Right now it's just starting to seem that UU members can't take any kind of jab/criticism of the church and can't be bothered to actually let people know what the hell it's about when they've got the wrong idea.

maybe it seems that way to you. I think a few people, including a few UUs, have explained stuff fairly clearly. But you have an agenda, something about proving a point regarding all organized religions, so you're only hearing what you want to hear.

Earlier in this thread, you said you know very little about UU, and clearly you've only done the slightest bit of web research. That seems like an odd footing on which to refute actual Unitarians about what UU is about. You can't believe everything you read on the net, man. Sometimes it helps to talk to an actual member.

You're really sounding more and more like this guy, who honestly isn't worth talking to:

[Roaring Biscuit!]

Yeh I was gonna say, the facts are all there.

Though this really seems to have come down to a differing of opinions more than anything else something along the lines of of:

Person 1:  "I don't like organised religion, and can't see it working with my brand of discordianism"

Person 2:  "I'm a UU member, I enjoy being part of that church for [insert reasons here], I feel it works well with my interpretation of dicordiansim"

Person 1:  "I still dislike organised religions, and am having difficulty accepting your personal beliefs"

How is this constructive?

Edd

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So you're trying to say it's wrong to draw a conclusion about an organization based upon what it says about itself on its official web site, what it says in its founding documents, and what other people in this thread who are members of this organization have said about it?

Generally, I think a conclusion is probably a bad idea, no matter what you're basing it on.

You know, if that's true in this case, then UU might want to do a better job trying to put true information out there regarding their beliefs and values. Could also be helpful if you decided to actually mention how/where I was wrong instead of just saying 'nope, try again schmuck'.

What does their website have to do with you making assumptions? As to where you were wrong, I think we've been through this... you're first statement was wrong, entirely. MOst UU do not have blind faith in any particular belief system, though some may hold a belief system. Some UU do not believe in a Big Imaginary Friend, indeed, some UU are atheists.

So then, you made assumptions, based on... well I don't know where those assumptions came from, but I'm gonna guess "your ass". This, in short, is the whole point of the Cosmic Schmuck principle. We are ALL Cosmic Schmucks, we all jump to conclusions, make assumptions and generally confuse what we think and what we know.

From my perspective, you seem to have begun by making extremely broad assumptions and then defended those with quick web surfing... and then you seem to believe that you know as much or more than people who are UU, have interacted with UU members etc.

Sure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on

Schmuck Assumption #2
Not all Discordians agree that organized religion is a bad thing. There are Discordian Christians, Discordian Wiccans, Discordian Thelemics, Discordian Druids, Discordian Muslims and that's just Discordians that I've met.

True, it was a bit of a schmuck assumption to think that there was anything discordians can agree on. Of course, since you can find examples falling outside the norm for any group and behavior, I don't see how this invalidates the existence of at least a general disagreement between discordianism and organized religion. Beyond that point, just because someone identifies themselves as a member of a religion doesn't mean that person actually agrees with everything about it. I have met plenty of people over the years on and the board here even that will take a moniker associated with an organized religion due to believing in the underlying beliefs but at the same time will be disgusted with that religion as an organization and want nothing to do with it.

Ah, so your experience with some Discordians are enough to make intelligent assumptions about all Discordians, except for the few fringe idiots.... good to know you're not being a schmuck about this.

And your experience with some is a better ground to make intelligent assumptions to the contrary?
[/quote]

I'm not the one making assumptions here about what ALL Discordians agree on. I've met Discordians that explicitly disagree with your maxim. I have no assumption to make.

These are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.

This is nothing like any UU belief I've ever encountered. Therefore, I'm gonna consider it likely to be Schmuck Assumption  #3.

This is one that I'm not in a position to defend and I fully admit that I could have been out of line with. Since I have never attended a UU service, I can't know what tactics they try to employ, therefore have no idea if they do go for the good afterlife/bad afterlife way of trying to influence belief that many religions are so fond of. I admit that I pulled a schmuck assumption here due to the UU website touting it's origins while leaving most information regarding its current beliefs outside of the 7 main bullets buried deeper in the site. I would like to think of this as an honest mistake due to being mislead by the UU site, but I'm not going to try to fight for that.

I coould keep going but that's not useful. I hope these few examples show you exactly what I meant about assumptions that perhaps were due to the CS principle. But, perhaps you're one of the few who are never Cosmic Schmucks...

I wouldn't say never, as on a long enough timeline we all will take part in being one.

Indeed..... 

So tell me, considering that I've actually been finding supporting information, clarifying my arguments and standings, and addressing (the few) points brought up by people arguing against my statements, are you really going to be egotistical enough to try and say I'm the only one being a cosmic schmuck in this thread?

If someone has an issue with the accuracy of something I've brought up in this thread, I'd really like to hear it. And no, I don't just mean the "you're wrong, schmuck" and "go fuck yourself" type responses I've been getting, but something that will actually bring some sort of evidence to a specific point I'm wrong about. Just telling someone they are wrong on something without actually doing anything to prove it isn't helpful when they are trying to gain a deeper understanding on a subject, which I wanted to do when this all first started. Right now it's just starting to seem that UU members can't take any kind of jab/criticism of the church and can't be bothered to actually let people know what the hell it's about when they've got the wrong idea.
[/quote]

First, lets be clear, I am not a UU member. I personally find no redeeming value in organized religion.

Second, I think we've pointed out several areas where you were not accurate. If you can't find those, perhaps there are some iron bars in the way.

[Kai]

I find value in spiritual community, and this UU fellowship has both spirituality and community, and there doesn't seem to be any "dogma" beyond the belief in the inherent worth and dignity of every person.

Thwack, since you've never really talked with any UU's, studied UU principles or attended a UU fellowship service, it basically shows you have absolutely no understanding of what Unitarian Universalism is about, or at least less understanding than people who actually have done these things. In which case, you're critique is completely irrelevant. You don't understand it, so how can you really cast judgment?