I'm making a religion based on Emergence.

[Kai]

I have a couple of ebooks on the subject (surprise surprise), only I'm not sure where.  Kai might be able to tell you the name of the book I sent him on Emergence - its a broad overview from several authors, IIRC, and so is quite suited as a high-level introduction to the topic.

I don't know where it went now.  If I find it I'll post here.

Stuart Kauffman's book Reinventing the Sacred is the only other book I can recommend, as most of the books on emergence theory are mathematical texts.

Theres a long list of references at the end of the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Do you have any other text pertaining to your religion, other than the blog post which I could read?

Aside from the stuff in this thread and the scattered writings around this forum, there's nothing else.

[D.A.N]

I'm starting a religion based on the belief that everything that is wrong in the world should be blamed on gay marriages

[MMIX]

I'm starting a religion based on the belief that everything that is wrong in the world should be blamed on gay marriages

   ha ha ha, ho ho ho, you are WAY too late for that . . . maybe you'll be late for your own funeral too

[D.A.N]

I'll have you know that I was the one who came up with the idea first, they stole it from me...dammit I think I should sue!!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

 

[Kai]

Seconded.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Seconded.

Well lets get back to the discussion... instead of what 'emerged' from it

[Cramulus]

BUMP

Kai I know you have some new thoughts on Emergence, yes?

I got my head spilled open yesterday and it got me really charged about Emergence. I was watching a chapter of Cosmos called The Persistence of Memory...

For now, you can watch it here: http://www.hulu.com/watch/63322/cosmos-the-persistence-of-memory

...during the course of this episode, sagan draws parallels between the information storage systems we've been using. First, our DNA, then, oral tradition, then writing, then the internet... Each step in the progression allows us to better communicate knowledge through the ages, allows us a wider range of input to select from in choosing what is relevant.

And sagan also talks about the brain - how it evolved in stages. First we have the subcortex - the reptile brain, something "not unlike a crocodile." Then outside of that we have the mammalian brain, the limbic system. And finally we have the newest part, the cortex, the frontal lobe, the part that facilitates language, certain types of complexity, a lot of the stuff that makes us human. Sagan says that our cortex allows us to overcome those ancient responses. We can finally overcome the reptilian territorial responses, we are no longer victim to our mammalian brain, we can choose our actions.

Sagan draws another parallel between the brain and a city. As technology advances, cities must change too, but they do it by updating and renovating existing systems. When main street switched from horse and carriage to cars, things had to change, but main street stayed more or less the same. Sagan says that brains are different because they have all these old drives, competing and contradicting, eventually our behavior emerges from these zillions of invisible interrelated systems. So if you were standing on a city street corner inside your brain, you wouldn't just see cars, you'd also see horses and buggies, old trolleys, guys walking around with spears and warpaint...

It's so fascinating that all of these complex systems more or less look the same. The brain, the community, the city, the internet. The network. The Art of Memetics describes it pretty well - you have these nodes of varying importance, and they're connected in different ways. And certain systems rely on other systems, and in the end the behavior emerges from these numerous competing systems. If a city decides to renovate some old apartment building, there will be forces supporting and resisting that decision. Just as if you are trying to kick an old habit, there are forces in your brain supporting and resisting that decision.

So we, as humans, are on our honor to pick the best behaviors for the organisms we belong to. As humans we can use our cortex to overcome our lizard and monkeybrain. And if we can get a group of people using their cerebral cortex, we can overcome, to some degree, the lizard and monkeybrain systems present in our cities and societies.

It is a hopeful message.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

BUMP

Kai I know you have some new thoughts on Emergence, yes?

I got my head spilled open yesterday and it got me really charged about Emergence. I was watching a chapter of Cosmos called The Persistence of Memory...

For now, you can watch it here: http://www.hulu.com/watch/63322/cosmos-the-persistence-of-memory

...during the course of this episode, sagan draws parallels between the information storage systems we've been using. First, our DNA, then, oral tradition, then writing, then the internet... Each step in the progression allows us to better communicate knowledge through the ages, allows us a wider range of input to select from in choosing what is relevant.

And sagan also talks about the brain - how it evolved in stages. First we have the subcortex - the reptile brain, something "not unlike a crocodile." Then outside of that we have the mammalian brain, the limbic system. And finally we have the newest part, the cortex, the frontal lobe, the part that facilitates language, certain types of complexity, a lot of the stuff that makes us human. Sagan says that our cortex allows us to overcome those ancient responses. We can finally overcome the reptilian territorial responses, we are no longer victim to our mammalian brain, we can choose our actions.

Sagan draws another parallel between the brain and a city. As technology advances, cities must change too, but they do it by updating and renovating existing systems. When main street switched from horse and carriage to cars, things had to change, but main street stayed more or less the same. Sagan says that brains are different because they have all these old drives, competing and contradicting, eventually our behavior emerges from these zillions of invisible interrelated systems. So if you were standing on a city street corner inside your brain, you wouldn't just see cars, you'd also see horses and buggies, old trolleys, guys walking around with spears and warpaint...

It's so fascinating that all of these complex systems more or less look the same. The brain, the community, the city, the internet. The network. The Art of Memetics describes it pretty well - you have these nodes of varying importance, and they're connected in different ways. And certain systems rely on other systems, and in the end the behavior emerges from these numerous competing systems. If a city decides to renovate some old apartment building, there will be forces supporting and resisting that decision. Just as if you are trying to kick an old habit, there are forces in your brain supporting and resisting that decision.

So we, as humans, are on our honor to pick the best behaviors for the organisms we belong to. As humans we can use our cortex to overcome our lizard and monkeybrain. And if we can get a group of people using their cerebral cortex, we can overcome, to some degree, the lizard and monkeybrain systems present in our cities and societies.

It is a hopeful message.

Different model, but expressing the same kind of emergence that Leary and others have theorized. The Reptile Brain = Bio Survival, Monkey Brain = Territorial, Frontal Lobe = Semantic&Social/Sexual (3rd and 4th together). I also like that Sagan and Leary come to the same conclusions that the emerging/evolving process allows humans to overcome the older parts of the system. It's a very hopeful concept.

And, after looking through history... we have our problems, but it does seem that many humans are attempting to overcome their reptile and monkey brains.

[Elder Iptuous]

isn't (nearly) everybody continuously overcoming their 'reptile brain' to various degrees?
and is it implied here that completely overcoming it is desirable?  as if it is wholly an encumbering vestige of a past long gone?

[AFK]

Probably isn't possible or likely.  Awareness, however, is and should be encouraged at minimum. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

isn't (nearly) everybody continuously overcoming their 'reptile brain' to various degrees?
and is it implied here that completely overcoming it is desirable?  as if it is wholly an encumbering vestige of a past long gone?

I think that would be a bad plan. It seems beneficial to me, to be able to identify when the reptile or monkey brain is trying to do something so that you can tell it to fuck off, or listen to it, based on the situation. Sometimes "Fight or Flee" is the right part of the brain for that situation... like a gang of thugs jumping you in a dark alley.

I tend to apply the Cosmic Schmuck principle to these...

The more often you realize you're using your reptile/monkey brain, the more likely you are to control the imprints/impulses/automated responses and act like a human being. If you rarely, or never realize that you're using your reptile/monkey brain, then you'll probably act like a reptilian monkey for the rest of your life.




ETA:

So in other words, what is emerging is the 'potential' to modify ourselves, the tools to 'metaprogram'... the ability to consider the system, from within the system.

[Elder Iptuous]

right.
just wanted to make that distinction.

[Kai]

BUMP

Kai I know you have some new thoughts on Emergence, yes?

I got my head spilled open yesterday and it got me really charged about Emergence. I was watching a chapter of Cosmos called The Persistence of Memory...

For now, you can watch it here: http://www.hulu.com/watch/63322/cosmos-the-persistence-of-memory

...during the course of this episode, sagan draws parallels between the information storage systems we've been using. First, our DNA, then, oral tradition, then writing, then the internet... Each step in the progression allows us to better communicate knowledge through the ages, allows us a wider range of input to select from in choosing what is relevant.

And sagan also talks about the brain - how it evolved in stages. First we have the subcortex - the reptile brain, something "not unlike a crocodile." Then outside of that we have the mammalian brain, the limbic system. And finally we have the newest part, the cortex, the frontal lobe, the part that facilitates language, certain types of complexity, a lot of the stuff that makes us human. Sagan says that our cortex allows us to overcome those ancient responses. We can finally overcome the reptilian territorial responses, we are no longer victim to our mammalian brain, we can choose our actions.

Sagan draws another parallel between the brain and a city. As technology advances, cities must change too, but they do it by updating and renovating existing systems. When main street switched from horse and carriage to cars, things had to change, but main street stayed more or less the same. Sagan says that brains are different because they have all these old drives, competing and contradicting, eventually our behavior emerges from these zillions of invisible interrelated systems. So if you were standing on a city street corner inside your brain, you wouldn't just see cars, you'd also see horses and buggies, old trolleys, guys walking around with spears and warpaint...

It's so fascinating that all of these complex systems more or less look the same. The brain, the community, the city, the internet. The network. The Art of Memetics describes it pretty well - you have these nodes of varying importance, and they're connected in different ways. And certain systems rely on other systems, and in the end the behavior emerges from these numerous competing systems. If a city decides to renovate some old apartment building, there will be forces supporting and resisting that decision. Just as if you are trying to kick an old habit, there are forces in your brain supporting and resisting that decision.

So we, as humans, are on our honor to pick the best behaviors for the organisms we belong to. As humans we can use our cortex to overcome our lizard and monkeybrain. And if we can get a group of people using their cerebral cortex, we can overcome, to some degree, the lizard and monkeybrain systems present in our cities and societies.

It is a hopeful message.

My change in understanding of Emergence has come from reading the Less Wrong sequences, and is twofold:

1. Emergence often gets thrown around as a semantic stopsign which prevents further exploration. Therefore I don't want to wield it that way.

2. The universe really does reduce to elementary fields. If I use emergence as explanatory, the explanation of everything above elementary fields is "Emergence!" How useful is that really?

Instead of being an explanatory item, my new use of emergence is the universal tendency of interacting elementary fields to produce categorical nova.

For the moment anyway. I'm sorta struggling with this right now.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I really like the Semantic Stopsign concept... its very similar to "Dogma" as used by RAW, but without the necessarily religious baggage tied to the word. Thanks Kai!!

I think that a key aspect to any 'system' of religion it to constrain itself to what it can usefully talk about and what it cannot necessarily talk about. We can certainly discuss current human consciousnesss in terms of emergence, even carbon based life forms in those terms... but when it comes to Life, The Universe and Everything... 'emergence' is probably as useful as '42'.



If you are careful about what you're modeling and how far reaching your model is, I think you could avoid the semantic stopsign issue. One of the best defenses against Dogma is "I don't know, but I'm interested in ideas on the subject"