Justice

[Cain]

This can be observed in any primate band, with the exception of military-style organizations, where the pecking order is already established, and noted by what the individual monkey has on his collar.  This is why the military has a lower incidence of insanity (during peacetime - in wartime, other stresses are introduced that have an unrelated effect) than is found in the general population.

Interesting.  Terrorists and insurgents, excluding periods of extreme activity which could induce battle stresses like that in an army, display similar mental fortitude - the findings of a particular former CIA psychiatrist, not to mention the case history of hundreds of European terrorists in prison shows they also have an exceptionally low incidence of insanity (something like 0.4%, excluding those who got tortured until they had a mental breakdown, etc).

I wonder if it's authoritarianism or group-bonding, though.  Terrorists typically display authoritarian personality leanings, and usually any sort of cell-structure suggests a level of organisation that is pretty clearly defined, if not explicitly so (this guy is the planner, this one is the bomb-maker, the driver, the financier etc) and with their own levels of authority to each particular role (planner > bombmaker > driver etc).

But both terrorist and military training tends to produce incredibly strong in-group/out-group distinctions.  I wonder if this isn't also a factor, since if you make it strong enough, it might create both a sense of belonging and meaning (which would contribute to mental stability) and create the sort of atmosphere where productive work takes precedence over attempting to establish rank and pecking orders all the time.

Of course, it could be both, there is no reason why the two factors cannot work in tandem, I'm just curious which one has more of an effect.

Anyway, just throwing that in, as food for thought.  You can all return to discussing justice, if you want.

[LMNO]

If I understand it correctly, if you give yourself up to a Fourth Circuit institution (which controls morals, ethics, and social behaviors), they provide you with a pre-fab set of behaviors for C1-C3, as well; that is, they provide saftey, status, and a common language.  If insulated from other groups, this will tend to create (relatively) stable mental states; and of course, by "stable" I mean not subject to internal dissent or dissonance, not "not bat-shit crazy".

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah.  I tried to incorporate this into the BIP concept, as "Monkey Mind".

It's the only mind there is.

No matter what that Hemmingway fuck said.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

I really cannot respond without being such a fucking cunt I'll have to take a vacation. 

I used predator, prey and scavenger to try and keep my response nice.  Not for the reasons you read into it.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

I really cannot respond without being such a fucking cunt I'll have to take a vacation. 

I used predator, prey and scavenger to try and keep my response nice.  Not for the reasons you read into it.

NO VACATIONS TIL YOU COMMENT ON MY CONTRIBUTION TO THE FREAD!

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

TGRR,
Values your opinion.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

This can be observed in any primate band, with the exception of military-style organizations, where the pecking order is already established, and noted by what the individual monkey has on his collar.  This is why the military has a lower incidence of insanity (during peacetime - in wartime, other stresses are introduced that have an unrelated effect) than is found in the general population.

Interesting.  Terrorists and insurgents, excluding periods of extreme activity which could induce battle stresses like that in an army, display similar mental fortitude - the findings of a particular former CIA psychiatrist, not to mention the case history of hundreds of European terrorists in prison shows they also have an exceptionally low incidence of insanity (something like 0.4%, excluding those who got tortured until they had a mental breakdown, etc).

I wonder if it's authoritarianism or group-bonding, though.  Terrorists typically display authoritarian personality leanings, and usually any sort of cell-structure suggests a level of organisation that is pretty clearly defined, if not explicitly so (this guy is the planner, this one is the bomb-maker, the driver, the financier etc) and with their own levels of authority to each particular role (planner > bombmaker > driver etc).

But both terrorist and military training tends to produce incredibly strong in-group/out-group distinctions.  I wonder if this isn't also a factor, since if you make it strong enough, it might create both a sense of belonging and meaning (which would contribute to mental stability) and create the sort of atmosphere where productive work takes precedence over attempting to establish rank and pecking orders all the time.

Of course, it could be both, there is no reason why the two factors cannot work in tandem, I'm just curious which one has more of an effect.

Anyway, just throwing that in, as food for thought.  You can all return to discussing justice, if you want.

I think it's both, but I think the clear heirarchy thing is more important.  Primates NEED that.

[LMNO]

This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

I really cannot respond without being such a fucking cunt I'll have to take a vacation. 

I used predator, prey and scavenger to try and keep my response nice.  Not for the reasons you read into it.

I stopped reading GA's post right after "To extend your biological metaphor".

Because it was obvious the point had been missed.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

And as usual, I find Mikey being followed by some asshole, who's getting his hard on by messing with the poor kid. And lo and behold it's my first friend, Jake. Jake who's been a victim his entire life, is turning around and doing to this other kid.

Why so upset?  This is normal monkey behavior.  Jake gets his ass kicked by a bigger monkey, so he now has a drive to ensure that he isn't at the bottom of the pecking order, so he beats hell out of an even smaller monkey, to establish his place in the pack (This is how Southern aristocrats convinced poor Whites to fight to establish a permanent aristocracy in the South a couple of hundred years ago...they would not be on top, but they would be guaranteed not to be on the bottom).

This can be observed in any primate band, with the exception of military-style organizations, where the pecking order is already established, and noted by what the individual monkey has on his collar.  This is why the military has a lower incidence of insanity (during peacetime - in wartime, other stresses are introduced that have an unrelated effect) than is found in the general population.

And where do you fit in?  You're using your slightly higher place in the pecking order to enforce your values with respect to the lesser monkeys.  Please note that this is not necessarily a bad thing, and is also perfectly normal.  In fact, the entire system is - in all primates - kept from turning into hell based on the fact that some of the stronger monkeys have values that are worth enforcing.

Justice isn't dead.  Justice just relies on the right monkey in the right place at the right time.  If I were you, I'd drag Jake aside and ask him what the fuck he was thinking (now that you obviously have his attention).  See if you can make Jake a better monkey.

You say it so much better than I do!!!  Our place (and yes I consider myself a "higher" primate) is to do exactly as you say here Roger, make sure the stronger monkeys with the values and priorities worth having are the ones we put into position to run the group. 

The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values, the problem is so few of them are willing to stand up for those values.  Should we shelter the smaller monkeys and allow them to grow up "hassle free"?  I don't think so.  If we don't allow them to fight their way up the pecking order, what have they learned?  Yes, when they get out of hand a larger monkey should step in and try to make it right, but, we cannot just clear the path completely or we end up with a bunch of monkeys who think their shit doesn't stink when they fling it!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values,

Like Jake?

[LMNO]

The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values,

Like Jake?

Zang!

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values,

Like Jake?

No, more like Dr. James..... 

Jake hasn't worked his way up to "smaller" monkey yet.  He's still an infant on the teat!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values,

Like Jake?

No, more like Dr. James..... 

Jake hasn't worked his way up to "smaller" monkey yet.  He's still an infant on the teat!

James, as described in this incident (and references to others) is one of the larger monkeys, relatively speaking.

[LMNO]

Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values,

Like Jake?

No, more like Dr. James..... 

Jake hasn't worked his way up to "smaller" monkey yet.  He's still an infant on the teat!

James, as described in this incident (and references to others) is one of the larger monkeys, relatively speaking.

 

It's all relative though right?

Dr. James get's it, whether he is willing to fight to enforce it remains to be seen!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.