Discuss libertarianism for the Nth time

[Reginald Ret]

there is a spectrum of conscience and people exist somewhere on that spectrum,

Agreed.
I propose a spectrum going from   0(innocent) to infinity(ultimate evil)   instead of the more commonly used   negative infinty to infinity (where 0 is innocent and the opposite infinities are good/evil).
the numbers are irrelevant of course, i just think they help with visualisation.

Well, I think we can agree on murder, rape (all kinds), theft, and jaywalking, right?

Sounds good, esp those damned jaywalkers! 

In fact I'd shorten it to crimes that restrict the freedoms  and person of another human. Rape, Murder, Slavery, various forms of Abuse

Agreed.
I would really like to say something about taxes just being theft by the biggest gang but i like the direction this thread is going so i won't.

Also, i have decided to hide tvtropes links in smileys whenever i can.

[Jasper]

I like the idea of evil points, just not in the context of ethics.

Like if it were a competition?

I can get behind that.

Yeah.  If you're going to systematize wickedness, you might as well put it to work refining the art.

[Template]

Well, as a matter of ethics, we could promote "evil points" as golf-like(aim for a low score), bowling-like, basketball-like, or tetris-like...

[Jasper]

Well, as a matter of ethics, we could promote "evil points" as golf-like(aim for a low score), bowling-like, basketball-like, or tetris-like...

Sure is MISSING THE FUCKING POINT out today, hmm?


+.65 evil points

[Triple Zero]

Okay, so let's establish a few terms.

Would "objective" be satisfied by being a universal value amongst current human societies?

No, but I will concede that a value universally held by current human societies is a consensually agreed upon value and therefore it deserves far more consideration than some value I may personally hold but isn't universally accepted. It's still subjective, but it appears subjectively true to Humans in general, rather than subjectively true to a single tribe or individual. Objective values would be values that are Good or Bad notwithstanding the views of any humans.

If for the purpose of this argument you want to use objective to mean "generally agreed upon by most societies of humans on this planet" that's fine... as long as we understand that it is still 'subjective' in the end.

So using this definition of objective, I will amend my position to:

'Objective' standards of morals and ethics,  standards agreed upon by all societies of humans,  exist. However. these make up a very small percentage of moral and ethical beliefs or values. With some exceptions, these 'objective' values can help us determine if an act is moral or ethical according to the views of most humans. They can also be beneficial in informing our own subjective moral and ethical positions. If 99% of the societies on Earth say it is bad/wrong to randomly kill people, then a moral belief that it is acceptable to randomly kill people indicates that the latter is probably suffering from some sort of psychosis (Gone Postal) or is the victim of some terribly bad programming (Terrorists).

I'd go so far as to say that 'objective' morals and ethics can create a useful framework for determining/creating a set of social norms for moral and ethical issues.

Well, I think we can agree on murder, rape (all kinds), theft, and jaywalking, right?

Perhaps quite a few more, if we are supposed to believe this quote from Stephen Pinker about "Universal People":

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=15821.0

[Iason Ouabache]

Bump for the best rant against libertarianism I have read in a very long time:

http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/03/ayn-rand-in-uganda-2/

You might say that Marx's nightmare is Paul's utopia. According to Marx, the defining characteristic of capitalism is the commodification of human labor. He described this arrangement as "transitory serfdom". According to libertarians, not only is the sale of one's labor power not exploitative or serf-like, it is an expression of human freedom. American anarchist Voltairine De Cleyre called this "freedom" a "mysterious wetness" unconnected to anything tangible or real; others, that it represents the "freedom to starve". The relationship between the capitalist and the worker is similar to the relationship between an armed robber and his victim. A mugging victim has the choice not to turn over his wallet, but the power imbalance is so severe that the decision is mostly made for him. The same analogy can be drawn to workers under authoritarian communism.

Rand's philosophy is not difficult to articulate. It can be summed up by the title of one her books, The Virtue of Selfishness. For Rand, the very characteristics that human beings tend to most admire about ourselves – compassion, empathy, altruism, cooperation, egalitarianism and other "higher angels" – are actually the most dangerous elements of our nature. A free society will evolve when individuals look out solely for themselves.

It should be noted, at this point, that Rand's philosophy represents a revolt against human nature. Not only are we hard-wired to feel emotions like empathy, it is precisely our ability to share, commiserate and act collectively that allows us to survive as a species. Moreover, recent data suggests that the great bugaboo of libertarianism – equality of outcome – is actually the single most important determinant of health and happiness in society.

There are so many problems with libertarianism that it would require a set of encyclopedias to elucidate them. It should be sufficient to note that were a theoretical "free market" ever to come into existence, it would quickly succumb to monopoly. Capitalism has never existed without a strong state to protect wealth disparities and maintain stability in markets, nor could it, for the simple reason that most human beings resent hierarchical relationships and will always act collectively to oppose them. Orwell dismissed the libertarians as follows:

   

(What Hayek) does not see, or will not admit, [is] that a return to "free" competition means for the great mass of people a tyranny probably worse, because more irresponsible, than that of the State. The trouble with competitions is that somebody wins them.

[Doktor Howl]

Nice. 

I plan to quote that at a few boards.

[Reginald Ret]

Another halfassed idea (regarding politics):
If taxes = extortion and extorting people = bad then don't tax people, tax organisations (companies, churches, bowlingteams, whatever)
Where the larger the organisation the higher the tax percentage.
this would prevent monopolies from occuring without hurting free market competition.

[Kai]

I guess the next time some randroid tries to talk to me about libertarianism, I can honestly respond with "sorry, sociopathy is against my religion." 

[Doktor Howl]

I guess the next time some randroid tries to talk to me about libertarianism, I can honestly respond with "sorry, sociopathy is against my religion." 

Kai nails it.

[BADGE OF HONOR]

I have always maintained that libertarianism is just an elaborate excuse to act like an inhuman monster. 

Strangely enough, libertarians get really upset when you say things like that.

[Kai]

Also, note that one of the authors of the Dissendant Voice blog is a holocaust denier. Don't know why the main editor allows him to stay.

That's way off the topic though. Back to understanding the sociopathic behaviors of libertarians/randroids.

[Cain]

Yay, not content with repeating the same thread topics as before, we're now repeating posts within the threads themselves.  Y'all had the human nature discussion back on pages 5-6.

[Kai]

Yay, not content with repeating the same thread topics as before, we're now repeating posts within the threads themselves.  Y'all had the human nature discussion back on pages 5-6.

Wow, I completely forgot about that. 

[Doktor Howl]

I have always maintained that libertarianism is just an elaborate excuse to act like an inhuman monster. 

Strangely enough, libertarians get really upset when you say things like that.

I'm gonna go grind that in some libertarian's chops.  Because I'm in a mood.