Tea Party: No longer harmless nutters

[Jenne]

I'm not entirely sure that education decreases crime per-se. In its function as a society-normalizing system, public schooling hemogenizes the types of crimes somewhat (drug use is more encouraged than murder, etc). In its function as actual education, it probably largely just makes people who commit crimes less likely to be convicted (between knowing what evidence is and is not allowed in court, what police are and are not allowed to do, more mundane methods of covering one's tracks learned from experience and classes on more or less unrelated subjects, etc.)

Enki, sorry, but that's just pure dumb speculation on your point.  I mean, knock yourself out and all, but there's nothing to support that.  The largest rate of crime during a 24-hour period is 3pm-6pm in the afternoon.  Why the fuck is that.

Please, don't front.

[Doktor Howl]

I'm not entirely sure that education decreases crime per-se. In its function as a society-normalizing system, public schooling hemogenizes the types of crimes somewhat (drug use is more encouraged than murder, etc). In its function as actual education, it probably largely just makes people who commit crimes less likely to be convicted (between knowing what evidence is and is not allowed in court, what police are and are not allowed to do, more mundane methods of covering one's tracks learned from experience and classes on more or less unrelated subjects, etc.)

Enki, sorry, but that's just pure dumb speculation on your point.  I mean, knock yourself out and all, but there's nothing to support that.  The largest rate of crime during a 24-hour period is 3pm-6pm in the afternoon.  Why the fuck is that.

Please, don't front.

All I know is that I'm never going to dig up a link for that little freak again.  He has decided on some bullshit which is somehow given validity by virtue of him making it up, and he blew right past the link he asked for, without reading it.

[Jenne]

Many states are doing that now--so "teaching to the test" is becoming more and more of an imperative.

Fucking useless.

Assessment has its values. (seeingashowI'memployedbyonesuchassessmentcompanyahem)

However.  I think most would agree that it's short-sighted and doesn't seek to teach in a well-rounded fashion to any degree.  Sickens me how the pendulum has swung.  It does, every decade or so.  But it's soooo far to the "top-down" approach at this point it's driving me just a weensy bit insane (moreso that I am already).  Thing is, this is what the political catchall is for education.

These. My mom works in a poor school district in a very poor part of the city. Everything she does HAS to involve the standards (which is pretty much just math and reading). No art, almost no science (it's actually on the standards but there's like one question, the answer to which she teachers the day before), no history, no geography. She tries to add them in as much as she can with the reading materials, but there's only so much she can do.

I remember making paper turkeys and little Pilgrims out of felt and Popsicle sticks when we learned about the Mayflower in third grade and she can't do that kind of thing because it takes time away from the standards. It was hands on and made history fun--you want to do that with education as much as you can, I think.

Even further:  they've discovered that the subjects that were/are always considered "filler" such as PE and art actually ENHANCE the learning ability of math and reading.  Go figure.  So those things that are the TARGET pieces of curriculum are actually taught better, faster and have higher retainment when they are taught with art and the benefit of physical exercise.

[Jenne]

I'm not entirely sure that education decreases crime per-se. In its function as a society-normalizing system, public schooling hemogenizes the types of crimes somewhat (drug use is more encouraged than murder, etc). In its function as actual education, it probably largely just makes people who commit crimes less likely to be convicted (between knowing what evidence is and is not allowed in court, what police are and are not allowed to do, more mundane methods of covering one's tracks learned from experience and classes on more or less unrelated subjects, etc.)

Enki, sorry, but that's just pure dumb speculation on your point.  I mean, knock yourself out and all, but there's nothing to support that.  The largest rate of crime during a 24-hour period is 3pm-6pm in the afternoon.  Why the fuck is that.

Please, don't front.

All I know is that I'm never going to dig up a link for that little freak again.  He has decided on some bullshit which is somehow given validity by virtue of him making it up, and he blew right past the link he asked for, without reading it.

Didn't you know statistics can be made up for ANYTHING, Roger? 

[Doktor Howl]

I'm not entirely sure that education decreases crime per-se. In its function as a society-normalizing system, public schooling hemogenizes the types of crimes somewhat (drug use is more encouraged than murder, etc). In its function as actual education, it probably largely just makes people who commit crimes less likely to be convicted (between knowing what evidence is and is not allowed in court, what police are and are not allowed to do, more mundane methods of covering one's tracks learned from experience and classes on more or less unrelated subjects, etc.)

Enki, sorry, but that's just pure dumb speculation on your point.  I mean, knock yourself out and all, but there's nothing to support that.  The largest rate of crime during a 24-hour period is 3pm-6pm in the afternoon.  Why the fuck is that.

Please, don't front.

All I know is that I'm never going to dig up a link for that little freak again.  He has decided on some bullshit which is somehow given validity by virtue of him making it up, and he blew right past the link he asked for, without reading it.

Didn't you know statistics can be made up for ANYTHING, Roger? 

Sure.  Non-existant data supporting his conclusion > existant data refuting it.

I deal with this shit all the time, but it's usually when I'm arguing with Tea Party freaks.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

I don't have any.

Oh.  Never mind, then.

Do you?

I'm not in the habit of supporting other peoples' assertions.  It was your statement, YOU back it up.

My statement was a questioning of your statement -- namely, giving an alternate explanation for the data yours implied. Do you have any data that supports yours but does not support mine?

First hit of 143,000:

http://www.cybercollege.com/plume21.htm

I can get more, if you aren't wild about it.

Alright. Where do these numbers come from, if they are neither from convictions nor accusations of crime?

You didn't even read that, did you?

You cited a graph correlating education with convictions, not with crimes committed. I would be slightly more impressed with a graph of education quality by region versus crimes reported by region, since that would be a sensible counter to my proposition. If the educated can more effectively avoid being accused or convicted, the educated will be less frequently accused and less frequently convicted, resulting in a potentially identical graph to the one you posted.

[Jenne]

You cited a graph correlating education with convictions, not with crimes committed. I would be slightly more impressed with a graph of education quality by region versus crimes reported by region, since that would be a sensible counter to my proposition. If the educated can more effectively avoid being accused or convicted, the educated will be less frequently accused and less frequently convicted, resulting in a potentially identical graph to the one you posted.

Dude.  Quit while you're behind already.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

I'm not entirely sure that education decreases crime per-se. In its function as a society-normalizing system, public schooling hemogenizes the types of crimes somewhat (drug use is more encouraged than murder, etc). In its function as actual education, it probably largely just makes people who commit crimes less likely to be convicted (between knowing what evidence is and is not allowed in court, what police are and are not allowed to do, more mundane methods of covering one's tracks learned from experience and classes on more or less unrelated subjects, etc.)

Enki, sorry, but that's just pure dumb speculation on your point.  I mean, knock yourself out and all, but there's nothing to support that.  The largest rate of crime during a 24-hour period is 3pm-6pm in the afternoon.  Why the fuck is that.

Please, don't front.

Like I said, I'm giving an alternate explanation for what he cited. If the educated are less frequently convicted, it can result in the same data, regardless of how frequently they commit crimes. Committing crimes is not the same thing as being convicted of crimes. I'm not saying my proposition is fact -- I'm just saying that it fits the data and makes as much sense as his proposition.

[Doktor Howl]

You cited a graph correlating education with convictions, not with crimes committed.

If you don't have a conviction, then how can you assign an education to the perpetrator?

You're a goddamned retard, Enki.  Every once in a while, I start thinking you have a brain, then you post shit like this.

[Doktor Howl]

Like I said, I'm giving an alternate explanation for what he cited.

Just as "Intelligent Design" is an alternate explanation for why we're here.

And your hypothesis is every bit as proven as ID.  Way to go.

[Doktor Howl]

I'm not saying my proposition is fact -- I'm just saying that it fits the data and makes as much sense as his proposition.

No, it fucking doesn't.  Goddamn it.

Okay, Enki...all crimes are committed by fucking leprecauns.  Prove me wrong.

Idiot.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

You cited a graph correlating education with convictions, not with crimes committed.

If you don't have a conviction, then how can you assign an education to the perpetrator?

That's my point. You can't create statistics associating education levels with actual perpetrators -- only with the convicted. So, your "education makes people commit less crimes" statement is as well supported as my "education makes people less likely to be convicted of crimes" statement by the data you cited -- meaning that this correlation does not necessarily mean what you say it does. I could come up with other statements it could support, but my point is that there is not necessarily the causal relationship here that you see.

If you like, you can find some data that will support your argument without supporting mine (like I said, find education by region and reported crimes by region, then superimpose them), and I'm quite sure that you will find it. I'm not arguing against your conclusion per-se. I'm just arguing against your analysis, since it doesn't actually follow.

[Doktor Howl]

That's my point. You can't create statistics associating education levels with actual perpetrators -- only with the convicted.

Okay, in what nation do you live, Enki?

[LMNO]

Hey, enki:






That is to say: we've had plenty of discussions about "crime" vs "getting caught" as well as "crime" vs "legal rules prohibiting behavior".  We've even had the "crime" vs "ethics" debate.


And now, you're trying to make an argument that says, in effect, "pre-adolescent, and mostly pre-pubescent education, as a whole, only teaches students how not to get caught when committing a crime."

And you somehow decide that the correlation between education and all crimes is due to educated kids "getting away with it."

Again,

[Doktor Howl]

It's useless, LMNO. 

You're trying to use logic with an ID-type freak.

Enki, all crimes are committed by educated leprecauns, that frame up uneducated people.  169% troof.