Tea Party: No longer harmless nutters

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

Enki, I'll be nice, because, well, what the fuck, why not.

There is plenty of evidence of crimes comitted that exist regardless of whether someone is caught (corpses, and such).

There is also plenty of evidence that a majority of crimes are comitted within the perpetrator's neighborhood (that is, it's rare for a burgler to drive 100 miles for a B&E with a total loss of less than $1,000).

So, the evidence of a high crime rate, regardless of a high conviction rate, is evidence of an area that has a higher than avearage incidence of criminals.

There is a definite correlation between areas of high crime evidence and areas of low education.


Your thesis simply doesn't make sense.

I figured as much. But, Dok Howl's data didn't indicate any of that, did it?

Jenne brought that up.  You ignored it.  You also didn't read my link, so why provide you with any more data?  You've made your decision, based on nothing, and you're sticking to it.

I read your link, and told you why it didn't apply. LMNO read my post about why it didn't apply, and gave the appropriate response (which I was fishing for).

As I said, I agree with your conclusions. I firmly disagree with your (lack of) rationale behind it, since it is not logically cohesive.

[LMNO]

I do see good reasons why the educated would be likely to commit different crimes, in different ways, and defend themselves in different ways when accused.

Gosh, way to go right out on a limb there!




People from different backgrounds act differently!



Society prefers some behaviors over others, and codifies them!


You should probably stop posting in this thread, dude.

[Doktor Howl]

I give up.

Enki, you can sit and wank it all you like.  Knock yourself out.

[Rococo Modem Basilisk]

I do see good reasons why the educated would be likely to commit different crimes, in different ways, and defend themselves in different ways when accused.

Gosh, way to go right out on a limb there!




People from different backgrounds act differently!



Society prefers some behaviors over others, and codifies them!


You should probably stop posting in this thread, dude.

I probably would have used that in my original post, but I couldn't remember the emote code. It's not as though I've been saying anything new or shocking.

Why are we arguing again?

[LMNO]

Because, as usual, you're an ass.

[Doktor Howl]

I'm not entirely sure that education decreases crime per-se. In its function as a society-normalizing system, public schooling hemogenizes the types of crimes somewhat (drug use is more encouraged than murder, etc). In its function as actual education, it probably largely just makes people who commit crimes less likely to be convicted (between knowing what evidence is and is not allowed in court, what police are and are not allowed to do, more mundane methods of covering one's tracks learned from experience and classes on more or less unrelated subjects, etc.)

What Enki actually said.

Dok,
Is admiring the backpedal, though.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So it seems to me that the statistics on the topic of education and crime are very dependent on which values you plug in.

There are kids that don't complete school because they're too busy committing crimes, or spending time in Juvie.
There are kids that commit crimes because they had to drop out of school and deal with *insert bad situation here... like teen pregnancy*

And to Enki's garbled point...

There are some statistics which indicate that educated, middle class people may commit crimes and not get caught (or not get convicted) based on the access they have to legal counsel, the tendency of cops to focus on crimes in particular areas of the city (ghettos etc) and the sort of crimes being committed (local cops less likely to figure out a subtle white collar crime vs an obvious crime).

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/Emmelman404.htm

The study linked above concludes that poor people (which we can correlate to high school dropouts in some instances) are more likely to be convicted, even if they're innocent. Reasons cited include 'public defenders' and the social differences between someone who is perhaps indigent and members of the jury. The argument being that if the jury can't identify with the defendant (no home, no family, no job, no similar BIP bricks) then they're less likely to identify with the individual.

http://www.paulsjusticepage.com/RichGetRicher/summary3.htm


These folks also claim that the poor are more likely to be convicted, since they are less likely to be able to post bail, get an attorney, etc. They claim a "triple bias" against the poor:

   *  "Economic and class bias among harmful acts  as to which ones get labeled crimes and which are treated as regulatory matters"
   * "Economic bias among crimes"  - "the crimes that poor people are likely to commit carry harsher sentences than the 'crimes in the suites' committed by well- to do people"
   * "Among defendants convicted of the same crimes the poor receive less probation and more years of confinement than well- of defendants"


So I think there are probably a number of variables in any discussion of the uneducated, the poor and crime statistics. In fact, considering all the data I just browsed through, it looks more like some kind of feedback loop where you can't finish school, because you broke the law, so you can't get a job and thus you break the law to make a living, you get caught, but you can't pay for a good legal defense (because you don't have a job, because you didn't complete school and maybe you're also convicted of selling pot or something).

Will education alone fix the issue? I dunno... some of the status were focused on Unemployed rather than just 'Unemployed due to poor education'.

It seems like a very complicated series of statistics.

[Doktor Howl]

Well, Jenne, it was a nice conversation we were having about the state of education in America.

Perhaps some other time.

[Jenne]

Sigh. 

You know what?  Ok, fine.  Educated kids do the whole crime thing BETTER so they end up not in jail.  Whatever.

I'm not going to argue that the court system is perfect, nor am I going to argue with the fact that there are plenty of people committing crimes everyday that don't get caught or convicted in the same way others in another economic strata might (shit, I go over the speed limit everytime I drive, and I rarely get caught, and the last time I did I was let go and not "charged").

HOWEVER:

neither will I say that dropping out of school is going to benefit ANYONE.  Ever.  I don't care how complicated you want to make it all.

[Jenne]

Well, Jenne, it was a nice conversation we were having about the state of education in America.

Perhaps some other time.

I think the point is, Rog, that we both know some awesome people who've ended up in shitpiles because they don't have any education.  And could've benefitted greatly by it.

By "some people" I think I mean most everyone we know and have met.

[Doktor Howl]

Sigh. 

You know what?  Ok, fine.  Educated kids do the whole crime thing BETTER so they end up not in jail.  Whatever.

I'm not going to argue that the court system is perfect, nor am I going to argue with the fact that there are plenty of people committing crimes everyday that don't get caught or convicted in the same way others in another economic strata might (shit, I go over the speed limit everytime I drive, and I rarely get caught, and the last time I did I was let go and not "charged").

HOWEVER:

neither will I say that dropping out of school is going to benefit ANYONE.  Ever.  I don't care how complicated you want to make it all.

YAY!  Enki wins by bludgeoning everyone to death with his stupidity!

[Doktor Howl]

Well, Jenne, it was a nice conversation we were having about the state of education in America.

Perhaps some other time.

I think the point is, Rog, that we both know some awesome people who've ended up in shitpiles because they don't have any education.  And could've benefitted greatly by it.

By "some people" I think I mean most everyone we know and have met.

Yep.  But I was kind of enjoying talking about what's happening to the schools, before Enki was driven to prove what a genius he is.

Maybe I'll start a thread tomorrow.

[LMNO]

Oh, by the way:



ALL CRIMES ARE EQUIVALENT.





Raping your grandmother is exactly the same as tagging the wall in an industrial park.  Srsly.

[Jenne]

Sigh. 

You know what?  Ok, fine.  Educated kids do the whole crime thing BETTER so they end up not in jail.  Whatever.

I'm not going to argue that the court system is perfect, nor am I going to argue with the fact that there are plenty of people committing crimes everyday that don't get caught or convicted in the same way others in another economic strata might (shit, I go over the speed limit everytime I drive, and I rarely get caught, and the last time I did I was let go and not "charged").

HOWEVER:

neither will I say that dropping out of school is going to benefit ANYONE.  Ever.  I don't care how complicated you want to make it all.

YAY!  Enki wins by bludgeoning everyone to death with his stupidity!

Picking nits, more like.   It's just tiring.

[Doktor Howl]

Oh, by the way:



ALL CRIMES ARE EQUIVALENT.





Raping your grandmother is exactly the same as tagging the wall in an industrial park.  Srsly.