Free Will

[East Coast Hustle]

It IS stupid. This entire thread should have filled up with barstools immediately, and yet here we are, 9 pages later still reading/posting/arguing what is just about the stupidest topic I can think of that's intended to make the people discoursing about it sound smart.

At least the "OMG SHOES" threads aren't trying to be intelligent.

[NotPublished]

I'll just go back to being a series of Liquid Filled Bladders ... I get to Piss atleast.

[NotPublished]

It IS stupid. This entire thread should have filled up with barstools immediately, and yet here we are, 9 pages later still reading/posting/arguing what is just about the stupidest topic I can think of that's intended to make the people discoursing about it sound smart.

At least the "OMG SHOES" threads aren't trying to be intelligent.

I think its been upgraded to Dildoes

[NotPublished]

Heck, shit happens. Not my fault.

Instead of arguing for them, I think I'll choose to not believe in either of them.

The cock knows what it wants.

(I'll stop spagging up this thread, I don't really want to talk about Free Will... Hows that for free will?  )

[Faust]

What happens because of someones involvement, regardless of intent, may be their responsibility.  It is important to realize that, if a being (possessed of free will or no) knows that they may be held responsible for what happens because of them, they are less likely to behave poorly.

Additionally, without even looking at the truth value of free will, it should be obvious that behaving as though actions are not tied to responsibilities is a very bad idea.

Also, I now have polio.

I didn't say otherwise, I said that actions alone don't fully shape the responsibility, in fact in law there are many facets to take into account intent, even with the example of a person killing another you have homicide, manslaughter, intent is reflected in the law to a certain extent.

[Doktor Howl]

It IS stupid. This entire thread should have filled up with barstools immediately,

I was too busy poomping.  POOMPING!   

[Jasper]

What happens because of someones involvement, regardless of intent, may be their responsibility.  It is important to realize that, if a being (possessed of free will or no) knows that they may be held responsible for what happens because of them, they are less likely to behave poorly.

Additionally, without even looking at the truth value of free will, it should be obvious that behaving as though actions are not tied to responsibilities is a very bad idea.

Also, I now have polio.

I didn't say otherwise, I said that actions alone don't fully shape the responsibility, in fact in law there are many facets to take into account intent, even with the example of a person killing another you have homicide, manslaughter, intent is reflected in the law to a certain extent.

YOUR POSITION IS TOO NUANCED AND VARIABLE FOR ME TO PULVERIZE INTO BABY FOOD!!  FUCK YOU!

[Faust]

What happens because of someones involvement, regardless of intent, may be their responsibility.  It is important to realize that, if a being (possessed of free will or no) knows that they may be held responsible for what happens because of them, they are less likely to behave poorly.

Additionally, without even looking at the truth value of free will, it should be obvious that behaving as though actions are not tied to responsibilities is a very bad idea.

Also, I now have polio.

I didn't say otherwise, I said that actions alone don't fully shape the responsibility, in fact in law there are many facets to take into account intent, even with the example of a person killing another you have homicide, manslaughter, intent is reflected in the law to a certain extent.

YOUR POSITION IS TOO NUANCED AND VARIABLE FOR ME TO PULVERIZE INTO BABY FOOD!!  FUCK YOU!

So talk to me about it rather then feigning indigence with this thread.

[Jasper]

Yeah...meh. 

Alright. 

So, look at cognitive biases.  Look at the BIP.  Yeah, I'm stuck in an ontological quagmire, and yeah I'm forced to make every decision by hazarding an epistemological minefield, so my free will is not ideal.  I don't get to take my time with every decision I make, and I don't have access to any "facts" beyond what I perceive and remember and contrive.  So my actions are often wrong, incomplete, terrible, and idiotic.  Ideally I would have the resources to make the best decisions based on what I want, based on what I intend, but life is not like that.

But I do have a choice to make.  That's free will. 

[LMNO]

The coin/dice experiment where one's actions are decided by coin flips or other random methods shows that a person can act contrary to their usual behavioral patterns.

That shows free will.  Unless you also consider the coinflip to be pre-determined, along with the arbitrary actions assigned to the flip's position.


If we did not have free will, we could not act in the contrary.

[Jasper]

It's a trifle, but I can usually make a coin land the side I want it to by catching it a certain way.  No idea how it works, mind you.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The coin/dice experiment where one's actions are decided by coin flips or other random methods shows that a person can act contrary to their usual behavioral patterns.

That shows free will.  Unless you also consider the coinflip to be pre-determined, along with the arbitrary actions assigned to the flip's position.


If we did not have free will, we could not act in the contrary.

But then isn't the coin determining your action, rather than your Will?

[Brotep]

This thread makes Baby Jesus stillborn.

[Faust]

Yeah...meh. 

Alright. 

So, look at cognitive biases.  Look at the BIP.  Yeah, I'm stuck in an ontological quagmire, and yeah I'm forced to make every decision by hazarding an epistemological minefield, so my free will is not ideal.  I don't get to take my time with every decision I make, and I don't have access to any "facts" beyond what I perceive and remember and contrive.  So my actions are often wrong, incomplete, terrible, and idiotic.  Ideally I would have the resources to make the best decisions based on what I want, based on what I intend, but life is not like that.

But I do have a choice to make.  That's free will. 

I think thats accurate for the most part, I consider absolute free will diminished by the obvious physical impossibilities but also as I have said before, the subconscious compulsions that make us act in certain ways.
I'm always looking for things I do on automatic, why they happen, and how to turn them to manual.
I certainly don't believe in predetermination, but the human mind forcing you onto rails because and patterns of behaviour is where I argue that absolute free will is unobtainable.
I know this is straying a bit from the responsibility issue, but right now in the middle of the night I'm not sure I can verbalize a response.

This thread makes Baby Jesus stillborn.

I thought we were done with this.

[Telarus]

I'd like someone who is smarter than myself address the earlier stated point regarding how both free will and determinism both imply a self separate from the environment. Because this is where the argument pretty much stops for me.

It seems to me that the idea of separation stems from the monotheistic Creator who is apart from world and that we're somehow here to be TESTED in some fashion or other.

Here we are, picking peanuts out of poop...(I'm guessing Dok shat already).

What "me" is picking "what" out of "what"?

Caddisflies' environment are an aspect of their self?

Where do we draw the line?

oh, right, our skin.

goddamn sunburn.

shit. 

This is my position as well. Ultimately, the argument itself has eaten the menu and wild dogs are picking at the carcass of the meal.

Unfortunately, we are 'civilized' people. Which means that even tho this should be a non-issue, we have had dualities imposed upon us since birth and we are forced to call them 'really-real-reality' or we don't get no sammiches.