Dok, the monkeys have no integrity.

[Kai]

It's that time again, Roger. I took this position as part of the academic integrity committee because I thought it would be interesting, and I kept it because I wanted to make a difference.

But, OH, the monkeys that I have to deal with. Mind you, these are academics, scholars, graduate students. Otherwise known as the educated populous. And they are as much monkeys as the rest.

Take an ongoing incident, for example. We ruled previously on a case that this person, due to paying someone to take the admissions required language test for her, should be expelled and a statement be put on her transcript about violations of academic integrity. This was the ruling of the committee, and as per the written policy, plan and agreement of the university, our word was final. However, it is still not on her transcript. Why? Because the gibbering monkeys in administration are lollygagging on it, making excuses, saying it needs to be looked over again.

No. This is not what these fucking monkeys agreed to. And they are lowering our standards and by way of that MY standards. They are lowering my standards, the people who want this university to be a top twenty school.

Today, I am hearing several violations, probably to be a 5 hour affair starting at 2 pm and ending somewhere in the evening, a mixture of brazen monkeys without integrity and people who made honest mistakes, judged all the same. And it doesn't matter what I decided, because sooner or later my standards are going to be lowered. MY standards, goddammit Roger, are going to be lowered because the monkeys have no integrity.

[Doktor Howl]

You've done your part, Kai, your statement is on record.  That's not a cop out, it's a statement of fact.

One of the reasons monkeys ARE monkeys is a lack of integrity, both ethical and intellectual.  Get mad at the sun for rising, Kai, get mad at the tide for coming in.

And go deal with these other violations on their own merits.  It's the upright thing to do.

[Kai]

You've done your part, Kai, your statement is on record.  That's not a cop out, it's a statement of fact.

One of the reasons monkeys ARE monkeys is a lack of integrity, both ethical and intellectual.  Get mad at the sun for rising, Kai, get mad at the tide for coming in.

And go deal with these other violations on their own merits.  It's the upright thing to do.

That statement on record isn't enough. Remember what you said, about being here to build a better human? Well, I want to raise my standards. This is having the opposite effect. What does a biped do?

[LMNO]

Bring the administration before the Integrity Comittee?

[Richter]

People are weak, Kai.  On paper they're fine saying they're all for rigorous standards, hard lines, integrity, and zero tolerance.  It's a strong statement and makes the speaker appear strong.  Then they meet each other, and get into a situation where they ahve to apply them.  They don't HAVE to look strong, and see every reason under the not to be.  At that point, the apes don't want to be strong anymore.  The luster and the prestige has worn off, and there's only the hard, cold duty of carrying out sentence on something you can empathize with. 

Should they? Depends.

You understand the situation, the stakes, and the outcomes, and you made the best recomendation you could.  Administration is there to ADMINSTER what you've said, not second guess your decision or undermine your authority.

I'm looking somewhat 2.5 party to a similar situation right now.  I wonder, is giving someone that great big goodbye / fuck off forever REALLY called for?  Sometimes, with monkies broken or twisted enough it is.  Now and then you need to amputate people, and do so with cold resolve.  Put on the Inquisitor face, do the deed.  I've always hated doing it.  Doing anything like that from a position of power sucks. 

[Doktor Howl]

You've done your part, Kai, your statement is on record.  That's not a cop out, it's a statement of fact.

One of the reasons monkeys ARE monkeys is a lack of integrity, both ethical and intellectual.  Get mad at the sun for rising, Kai, get mad at the tide for coming in.

And go deal with these other violations on their own merits.  It's the upright thing to do.

That statement on record isn't enough. Remember what you said, about being here to build a better human? Well, I want to raise my standards. This is having the opposite effect. What does a biped do?

Go over their heads, if you feel it's important enough.  Risky move, though.

[P3nT4gR4m]

You've done your part, Kai, your statement is on record.  That's not a cop out, it's a statement of fact.

One of the reasons monkeys ARE monkeys is a lack of integrity, both ethical and intellectual.  Get mad at the sun for rising, Kai, get mad at the tide for coming in.

And go deal with these other violations on their own merits.  It's the upright thing to do.

That statement on record isn't enough. Remember what you said, about being here to build a better human? Well, I want to raise my standards. This is having the opposite effect. What does a biped do?

A biped does the only thing a biped can do - it concentrates on improving on itself. Improving the creatures who surround it is a nice, shiny, idealistic fantasy but it aint even verging on practical. Lead by example if you absolutely have to but even leadership is merely playing 1st guppy in a shoal of retard-fish.

[LMNO]

P3nt, I'm not sure why, but that comment, to me, sounds dickish, defeatist, nihilistic, and insulting.

I may feel differently tomorrow, but you've kind of nominated yourself for the president of the "why bother" contingent.

[Triple Zero]

My gf recently followed a course on Integrity (study on the job). Basically the idea I get of "integrity" (the way it is taught) corresponds pretty much to Kantian ethics. And that is including all the flaws in Kant's ethics. A good employer, however, will make allowances and exceptions for these flaws, which helps a little.

An example, you hear your collegue called in sick with high fever. Your hours happen to finish early and you happen to see this collegue in town, shopping. S/he notices you see him/her and looks like s/he feels guilty.

What do you do?

Loads of questions here. First. the manager shoudl have said he's sick, not "high fever". What if it was HIV or ME and they didn't want to tell it? My first hunch would be to confront the collegue. But integrity-wise, in a big corporation (or government institution) you're not supposed to be the one to get to make the judgement-call to let them off the hook. Snitch on the collegue to the manager?

Of course, if I were to view this dilemma in the light of my personal ethics, it would be different. It would also be my own problem.

But the assignment here was to of course decide it in light of this integrity course. What do they want to hear?

I assume they also don't want a culture of snithcing. Though you can also submit it to some integrity-comittee, anonymously. But in my personal ethics that's also wrong (unless it places you in personal danger).

Well it was a tough one. She ended up writing some random blah of course, but we got quite an interesting discussion out of it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

But it's true; you can't force others to be better people. I tell my kids that all the time; the only person you really have control over is yourself.

[LMNO]

000, was there a possibility of speaking with the person who called in sick?  That could have cleared things up, as far as context is concerned.

[Triple Zero]

000, was there a possibility of speaking with the person who called in sick?  That could have cleared things up, as far as context is concerned.

Yeah that's what I said, I would confront the collegue.

Also some parts in the material on the integrity course seemed to suggest a possibility for this course of action.

Just that, it doesn't solve the problem. What if they had a good reason, if I am getting this integrity stuff at her workplace right, it's not technically her place to make the judgement call.

Not that it's really a big issue, this was just a dilemma assignmetn question, and I know my gf is integer as fuck.

We did manage to slip the words "Kantian ethics" and "Categorical Imperative" into the report, though

[Kai]

So, as Electric Six says, "The lines are drawn, the orders are in."

First hearing was was a case of "unfortunate biped caught in the middle of two monkeys." The monkeys said they cheated as a joke, haha. It was easy enough to prove their innocence through phone bills. The unfortunate biped, an upstanding human of impeccable moral sensibilities, was caught in the crossfire. He was of course acquitted. The monkeys will be apologizing publicly and orally as pennance, a very appropriate and educational punishment.

The second case (continuing tomorrow) was much harder. This was a case of "monkey who can't learn to be a biped." I've seen this person before, he stood before committee last year, remember? He actually has come TWICE before, which made this a third offense. And same defense, and same "I will not make this mistake again". Same crocodile tears. The verdict means he probably won't be back to this university.


There are standards. They must be enforced. For MY and my colleagues' benefit, if not the whole university.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

My housemate has had a similar recurring problem in the form of a Masters student from another country who has been caught plagiarizing three times. The first time, she got a warning and had to re-write the paper. The second time, my housemate was all "WTF?" and spent days agonizing over whether a difference in cultural norms could have contributed to the student's apparent lack of understanding. By that point, my opinion was that if she was halfway through a Masters program in the US, she should be well aware of the expectations. In the end the student lost her grade for the paper, which quite possibly meant she also lost her financial aid. The third time, she was booted from the program.

I think that if she was not smart enough to understand that plagiarism was unacceptable in grad school, she didn't belong in grad school. I also think that she was completely aware that plagiarism was unacceptable in grad school, has been doing it regularly without getting caught, and was banking on not getting caught. People ho are unwilling or unable to do their own work also do not belong in grad school.

People deserve more than once chance when they fuck up. In my opinion, if a company provides a certain number of sick days to their employees, WHY they call in sick is not the employer's business. The last place I worked, they had both "sick days" (for illness/medical treatment) and "personal days" (for any reason the employee felt unable to come in). "Sick days" only had to be utilized, with medical proof, on the third consecutive day an employee called in, which meant that anyone could call in at any time with no excuse whatsoever, provided they weren't out more than two days. It helped keep morale high, and people didn't call in that often. Plus if you didn't use your days you got paid out for them at the end of the year.

[BadBeast]

MY standards, goddammit Roger, are going to be lowered because the monkeys have no integrity.

Having integrity has never been a part of what being a Monkey is about.
If you lower your standards as a reaction to this fact, then it's your own integrity, as well as your standards, that will suffer.