I love the queers

[trippinprincezz13]

Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.

To be fair, it seems like you are making it a big deal by insinuating that it is insensitive/making things worse/impolite not to ask someone up front what pronouns they want to be called by. If that's not what you meant, it's not how it came out.

If someone says they prefer to be addressed one way or another, I'll do my best to do that, but other than that, I have no interest in making a big deal of something that shouldn't be. It's just another way to divide people.

As for the woman/female thing...well I'm biologically female and I consider myself a woman, but I don't necessarily fit all the aspects of what a woman is "supposed" to be, which I assume is somewhere along the lines of - submissive, in the kitchen, pooping out babies? The women I know, have such varied tastes, styles, hobbies, interests, behaviors, that don't necessarily fit in one box or another, but I'm sure would still consider themselves women. Like Nigel said, the act of declaring oneself not a woman because they don't fit in certain lines, only seems to further reinforce the fact that there is a way that "Real Women" are supposed to act, rather than the fact that being a woman doesn't have a specific set of requirements.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. 

If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.

Are you accusing me of being indirect?  Bitch please. It's a general peeve that I already have, and not one that was invented by your existence. If you fit the bill, feel free to take offense at my opinion about it. But note that I was talking specifically about "here" as in Portland, where I live, so unless you live here I wasn't talking about you.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. 

If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.

I agree with you there. It's an interesting discussion, but it's counter-productive to get pissed off about it. ( I thought I was the only person who used 'het up', )

OK... show of hands... how many people are going to assume I'm implying them when I talk about the general environment where I live? 
Maybe read what I said:

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

I said, replying to Mangrove's comment about there not being many queers where he is, that queers are very common here, yet it's not an obstacle course because most people are really relaxed about it... with the exception of the rare person who, typically, seems mostly to be looking for trouble and having a hard time finding it.

If I was talking about Garbo, I would have talked about Garbo.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.

To be fair, it seems like you are making it a big deal by insinuating that it is insensitive/making things worse/impolite not to ask someone up front what pronouns they want to be called by. If that's not what you meant, it's not how it came out.

If someone says they prefer to be addressed one way or another, I'll do my best to do that, but other than that, I have no interest in making a big deal of something that shouldn't be. It's just another way to divide people.

As for the woman/female thing...well I'm biologically female and I consider myself a woman, but I don't necessarily fit all the aspects of what a woman is "supposed" to be, which I assume is somewhere along the lines of - submissive, in the kitchen, pooping out babies? The women I know, have such varied tastes, styles, hobbies, interests, behaviors, that don't necessarily fit in one box or another, but I'm sure would still consider themselves women. Like Nigel said, the act of declaring oneself not a woman because they don't fit in certain lines, only seems to further reinforce the fact that there is a way that "Real Women" are supposed to act, rather than the fact that being a woman doesn't have a specific set of requirements.

Yes, all of this.

[Juana]

I don't believe in the binary, period. I don't believe that being XX/a vagina owner means I HAVE to be a woman because, somehow, having one and not being a trans*man = woman. I am non-binary. I occasionally have brief boughts of dysmorphia, but I've mostly made my peace with the fact that I have boobs. When I feel like gal-ish again, I'd be really, really irritated if I got rid of them.

Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.

To be fair, it seems like you are making it a big deal by insinuating that it is insensitive/making things worse/impolite not to ask someone up front what pronouns they want to be called by. If that's not what you meant, it's not how it came out.

If someone says they prefer to be addressed one way or another, I'll do my best to do that, but other than that, I have no interest in making a big deal of something that shouldn't be. It's just another way to divide people.

As for the woman/female thing...well I'm biologically female and I consider myself a woman, but I don't necessarily fit all the aspects of what a woman is "supposed" to be, which I assume is somewhere along the lines of - submissive, in the kitchen, pooping out babies? The women I know, have such varied tastes, styles, hobbies, interests, behaviors, that don't necessarily fit in one box or another, but I'm sure would still consider themselves women. Like Nigel said, the act of declaring oneself not a woman because they don't fit in certain lines, only seems to further reinforce the fact that there is a way that "Real Women" are supposed to act, rather than the fact that being a woman doesn't have a specific set of requirements.

I'm talking about my "they" preference, but point taken on the "ask" thing.

JFC. I'm not abandoning women because of oppressive gender roles. I get to deal with them anyway. Not labeling myself as one doesn't mean I get to escape the boundaries our society has set for them (and "woman" means whatever the fuck a woman wants to mean; I'm just not one, okay?). It's that the word "woman" when applied to me is jarring. I don't think of myself as one, and never have. IMO, insisting that there is ONLY man and woman (because that's kind of what this conversation is implying; correct me if I'm wrong) is re-enforcing the binary. I don't fit. I don't think of myself as a woman. It's jarring. It's not a decision I made, it's just how it is.

[Juana]

I don't really understand why this is difficult. The gender binary is a construct of our modern society. Other cultures have more than two genders (shit, there's one somewhere with twenty six distinct genders!). Various pre-Western European cultures have had more than one gender.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Garbo, I want to clarify something: My perspectives and opinions exist completely independent of you and your existence. So, if I state an opinion that may pertain to you, that doesn't mean it was stated about you or for your benefit.

It just means that it happens to pertain to you. So, yes, if you feel that your opinion or behavior falls under the blanket of one of my statements, it does. That does not, by any means, mean that you were my inspiration. 

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. 

If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.

I agree with you there. It's an interesting discussion, but it's counter-productive to get pissed off about it. ( I thought I was the only person who used 'het up', )

OK... show of hands... how many people are going to assume I'm implying them when I talk about the general environment where I live? 
Maybe read what I said:

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

I said, replying to Mangrove's comment about there not being many queers where he is, that queers are very common here, yet it's not an obstacle course because most people are really relaxed about it... with the exception of the rare person who, typically, seems mostly to be looking for trouble and having a hard time finding it.

If I was talking about Garbo, I would have talked about Garbo.

I assume nothing. I was enjoying the discussion. And thinking about tacos.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am not a fan of the gender binary or of rigid gender roles.

However, I'm still not going to go around asking everyone "so what gender pronoun do you prefer?"

Because I think that's stupid, and I think it places unnecessary emphasis on categorizing people in a way that, bottom line, isn't all that important.

[Don Coyote]

Although I have taken a certain amount of guilty pleasure in asking male or female sexed people who prefer neutral pronouns why they insist on diminishing the struggle of intersex people. 

If this is another snark at me, please be direct. An intersex person will be raised one way or another and may or may not ID as a man or a woman. They might be non-binary. IDK. "They" is not what I think an intersex person should automatically be called.

I must live a very sheltered life. I will be probably be 100 years old before I find myself in a situation where I am wracking my brain to figure out which pronoun I need to use.

Where are you people hanging out where every new person is a veritable gender pronoun obstacle course? (Is this because I don't frequent bars & clubs for instance?)

Where I live (a town of about 5000 largely affluent white people), the chance of me needing to say 'zhe' is about as likely as me accidentally calling a 'Baron' a 'Viscount'.

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

Again, if this is a swipe at me, please be direct. I sure as fuck don't care how other people ID and I don't get het up about the fact that people can't read minds. How long have I been on this board before saying anything? How may times has someone here called me a "she"? I didn't snap at anyone, and frankly wish I hadn't said anything at all at this point. JFC, it's not a big deal.

I agree with you there. It's an interesting discussion, but it's counter-productive to get pissed off about it. ( I thought I was the only person who used 'het up', )

OK... show of hands... how many people are going to assume I'm implying them when I talk about the general environment where I live? 
Maybe read what I said:

They are EVERYFUCKINGWHERE here, and yet it's still not an obstacle course. The occasional person decides that they REALLY need to make a public scene about how special they are, but that's not that common. Plus it's usually because they're a kid, and they grow out of it and learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people's inability to read minds.

I said, replying to Mangrove's comment about there not being many queers where he is, that queers are very common here, yet it's not an obstacle course because most people are really relaxed about it... with the exception of the rare person who, typically, seems mostly to be looking for trouble and having a hard time finding it.

If I was talking about Garbo, I would have talked about Garbo.

But I live in the PNW?

[Don Coyote]

I am not a fan of the gender binary or of rigid gender roles.

However, I'm still not going to go around asking everyone "so what gender pronoun do you prefer?"

Because I think that's stupid, and I think it places unnecessary emphasis on categorizing people in a way that, bottom line, isn't all that important.

AND THOSE ARE THE WORDS I WANTED TO USE TO EXPRESS MY FEELINGS ON THIS!!!!!!!!!

[Juana]

Garbo, I want to clarify something: My perspectives and opinions exist completely independent of you and your existence. So, if I state an opinion that may pertain to you, that doesn't mean it was stated about you or for your benefit.

It just means that it happens to pertain to you. So, yes, if you feel that your opinion or behavior falls under the blanket of one of my statements, it does. That does not, by any means, mean that you were my inspiration. 

I didn't assume I was your inspiration. I assumed you were bringing it up because of what I said. And yes, I felt a little bit attacked and you did actually make a swipe at me indirectly earlier, so please forgive me for thinking you might be doing it more than once in this thread.

I am not a fan of the gender binary or of rigid gender roles.

However, I'm still not going to go around asking everyone "so what gender pronoun do you prefer?"

Because I think that's stupid, and I think it places unnecessary emphasis on categorizing people in a way that, bottom line, isn't all that important.

Fine. Don't. I tend to think gender is important, but what the fuck ever.

[Elder Iptuous]

you never asked me what pronoun i would prefer....

[Pæs]

I missed this thread. I'm so glad it came back.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Garbo, I want to clarify something: My perspectives and opinions exist completely independent of you and your existence. So, if I state an opinion that may pertain to you, that doesn't mean it was stated about you or for your benefit.

It just means that it happens to pertain to you. So, yes, if you feel that your opinion or behavior falls under the blanket of one of my statements, it does. That does not, by any means, mean that you were my inspiration. 

I didn't assume I was your inspiration. I assumed you were bringing it up because of what I said. And yes, I felt a little bit attacked and you did actually make a swipe at me indirectly earlier, so please forgive me for thinking you might be doing it more than once in this thread.

I am not a fan of the gender binary or of rigid gender roles.

However, I'm still not going to go around asking everyone "so what gender pronoun do you prefer?"

Because I think that's stupid, and I think it places unnecessary emphasis on categorizing people in a way that, bottom line, isn't all that important.

Fine. Don't. I tend to think gender is important, but what the fuck ever.

I didn't take an indirect swipe at you earlier... you asked if my statement meant you, and upon thinking about it I decided that yes, if you define yourself that way, it does indeed mean you. You, however, are not the reason (ie inspiration) for my statement or my post; I wasn't thinking of you when I posted it.

I don't think gender is completely unimportant, but it's also, to me, not the first thing I need to know when I meet someone. There are a lot of things that I think are more significant, especially when talking about someone I barely met. Personal things like gender, racial background, and who they fuck are not really any of my business.