Liberaltarianism

[Adios]

this recession was predictable to anyone really watching what was going on.

Oh I'm sure there were quite a few groups out there who saw it coming. They just fell into 2 categories:

1) Those convinced they could profit from it.

2) Those rendered ineffective by the system, and who couldn't do anything about it (this includes those made not aware of the possibility of it happening).

those convinced they could profit from it were the ones who (in casino speak) took the dark side bet that the betters would loose.

AIG was a dark side bet company if I'm understanding everything I've read correctly.

#2 sounds to me like people who didn't pay attention and didn't pull their money out in time and hedge better. 

(this includes those made not aware of the possibility of it happening).

I'm going to do my best to not sound like a dick here, and probably still fail..

but who the fuck said anyone had to make anyone else aware of the possibility of it happening?

isn't it everyone's responsibility?

I like you, but I haven't been on a cloud like the one you're on since the last time I did a hit of acid, 1971, I think.

8 years before I was even born..  really your last time?  you're not missing anything..  the quality is shit now.

If expecting people to pay attention to their own finances and what's going on in the global market (since it affects them) is a trippy expectation, then yeah..  I could see how someone could think I was licking the schnozberries.

I probably do expect more out of people than they're currently capable of.  Maybe EVER capable of.

I can see my house from here.

So from your high moral ground you think every average person should have been able to see everything happening in the economic industry, even though people educated in the field and many others who have first hand and inside knowledge didn't see it.

You want the average person to understand the global market?

You must be very wealthy indeed with all of this knowledge you possess.

I did liquidate my 401k in 2007.  It was out of necessity, and the taxes were a bitch.

I take no moral ground. 

I did expect the children of the children of the depression to maybe have learned something from their parents.

I was disappointed.

not much point in armchair quarterbacking it now..  I only hope this one taught people to look closer at what's going on and not get into so much damn debt.

Hell of a dodge, there.

So is your portfolio in the hundreds of millions?

Staying out of debt has nothing to do with understanding the global market.

I suppose buying a home really is a silly thing.

[Disco Pickle]

In fact, if economics was a science, it would consist mostly of the study of human irrationality.

It's always been a social science, unless I've been vastly misinformed.

It only exists within a primate social structure.

insects and reptiles have no reason to ever consider currency as an option for survival.

I may be missing your point here.

mine is that economics IS a science.  there are several "schools of thought" on the subject, but it is largely held (admittedly, by the same people who study it) as a social science.

I consider science to be a framework by which one describes and predicts actual reality, not a system of cognitive biases used to support whatever goddawful ideas make sense in the midst of an LSD trip. Therefore, not science. Which sucks, because if it were actually science maybe things wouldn't suck so much.

do you consider psychology and sociology to be sciences then since they obviously predict all possible human behavior?

[Disco Pickle]

this recession was predictable to anyone really watching what was going on.

Oh I'm sure there were quite a few groups out there who saw it coming. They just fell into 2 categories:

1) Those convinced they could profit from it.

2) Those rendered ineffective by the system, and who couldn't do anything about it (this includes those made not aware of the possibility of it happening).

those convinced they could profit from it were the ones who (in casino speak) took the dark side bet that the betters would loose.

AIG was a dark side bet company if I'm understanding everything I've read correctly.

#2 sounds to me like people who didn't pay attention and didn't pull their money out in time and hedge better. 

(this includes those made not aware of the possibility of it happening).

I'm going to do my best to not sound like a dick here, and probably still fail..

but who the fuck said anyone had to make anyone else aware of the possibility of it happening?

isn't it everyone's responsibility?

I like you, but I haven't been on a cloud like the one you're on since the last time I did a hit of acid, 1971, I think.

8 years before I was even born..  really your last time?  you're not missing anything..  the quality is shit now.

If expecting people to pay attention to their own finances and what's going on in the global market (since it affects them) is a trippy expectation, then yeah..  I could see how someone could think I was licking the schnozberries.

I probably do expect more out of people than they're currently capable of.  Maybe EVER capable of.

I can see my house from here.

So from your high moral ground you think every average person should have been able to see everything happening in the economic industry, even though people educated in the field and many others who have first hand and inside knowledge didn't see it.

You want the average person to understand the global market?

You must be very wealthy indeed with all of this knowledge you possess.

I did liquidate my 401k in 2007.  It was out of necessity, and the taxes were a bitch.

I take no moral ground. 

I did expect the children of the children of the depression to maybe have learned something from their parents.

I was disappointed.

not much point in armchair quarterbacking it now..  I only hope this one taught people to look closer at what's going on and not get into so much damn debt.

Hell of a dodge, there.

So is your portfolio in the hundreds of millions?

Staying out of debt has nothing to do with understanding the global market.

I suppose buying a home really is a silly thing.

didn't mean for it to be a dodge.

No, I'm not wealthy in the sense you mean.  I was born into an upper lower class family of the 70's who didn't know shit about much of anything, or care.

I've only been able to begin building wealth for the last 5 years, and even that is always on shaky ground should something catastrophic happen.

I'm upside down on my house and my sister is trying to convince me to short sale it like she did, but I'm not convinced that's the best route.  I never intended to use it as a charge card like a lot of other people did.  I want it to be a home for my son should he decide to move to the states.

no, Im not rich.  Does this change your opinion?

[Adios]

Change my opinion? Wasn't aware I had one. What I was doing was attempting to point out how much nonsense you were spouting about how even the average person should all about economics and the global market.

[Disco Pickle]

Change my opinion? Wasn't aware I had one. What I was doing was attempting to point out how much nonsense you were spouting about how even the average person should all about economics and the global market.

ah.  If you're investing money and expecting a return, outside of a savings account, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect you to know WTF is going on.

Or at the very least be paying an accountant that isn't blowing rainbows up your ass.

Again, I realize I may be expecting far too much from people.  I AM hoping this recession causes people to take better care of their finances, and to teach their children how to do so as well.

[East Coast Hustle]

I gotta say that so far, DP sounds pretty reasonable as long as the word "libertarian" is left out of the equation.

I have very little sympathy for those who bury themselves in debt without understanding what they're doing. The information is freely available, and while it may be unrealistic to expect people not to be lazy and greedy it doesn't mean that those traits should be supported or encouraged in any way. I could see the recession coming and made appropriate decisions about how to treat my financial and employment situations (again, based on freely available information) and even if I hadn't stumbled into my current awesome job I was still in a position of neutrality at worst and maybe even still getting ahead a little while everyone around me was losing their asses. And I have no formal education in such matters, barely understand the concepts behind finance, and do not typically count it as a subject of interest, so as far as I'm concerned if I can keep myself from becoming debt-ridden and stuck in a bad situation, anyone can do it.

[Adios]

I gotta say that so far, DP sounds pretty reasonable as long as the word "libertarian" is left out of the equation.

I have very little sympathy for those who bury themselves in debt without understanding what they're doing. The information is freely available, and while it may be unrealistic to expect people not to be lazy and greedy it doesn't mean that those traits should be supported or encouraged in any way. I could see the recession coming and made appropriate decisions about how to treat my financial and employment situations (again, based on freely available information) and even if I hadn't stumbled into my current awesome job I was still in a position of neutrality at worst and maybe even still getting ahead a little while everyone around me was losing their asses. And I have no formal education in such matters, barely understand the concepts behind finance, and do not typically count it as a subject of interest, so as far as I'm concerned if I can keep myself from becoming debt-ridden and stuck in a bad situation, anyone can do it.

Oh, I agree with this. My only point was expecting the average person to understand economics is over reaching. Avoiding debt requires no special education. I own a house and a car, and that is the only debt I have. I bought a double wide for $32K to avoid being overly in debt and to keep my payments under control.

[East Coast Hustle]

I guess my point is that you don't really have to understand all of the fine points of economics in order to make sound economic decisions. Buying a house that's not overvalued is a good reason to be in debt. Buying a 50" flat screen plasma TV on your credit card is horrifyingly retarded.

[Adios]

I guess my point is that you don't really have to understand all of the fine points of economics in order to make sound economic decisions. Buying a house that's not overvalued is a good reason to be in debt. Buying a 50" flat screen plasma TV on your credit card is horrifyingly retarded.

Yeah, I have no credit cards and I flat refuse them when offered. If I don't have it I don't spend it.

[East Coast Hustle]

That's how I operate (I use a visa debit card for stuff you can't do without a card) and it literally boggles my mind that almost everyone I know thinks it's weird or funny or quaint that I live within my means.

Many of them also frequently want to know how it is that I manage to live better on 30K a year than they do on 75K. I don't bother making the connection for them. Now that I'm pulling 45K and have virtually no expenses while on the ship, I can pretty much live like a goddamn king AND save money like it's going out of style, rather than deciding that making an extra 15K a year means I should find a way to spend an extra 20K a year.

[Kai]

In fact, if economics was a science, it would consist mostly of the study of human irrationality.

It's always been a social science, unless I've been vastly misinformed.

It only exists within a primate social structure.

insects and reptiles have no reason to ever consider currency as an option for survival.

I may be missing your point here.

mine is that economics IS a science.  there are several "schools of thought" on the subject, but it is largely held (admittedly, by the same people who study it) as a social science.

I consider science to be a framework by which one describes and predicts actual reality, not a system of cognitive biases used to support whatever goddawful ideas make sense in the midst of an LSD trip. Therefore, not science. Which sucks, because if it were actually science maybe things wouldn't suck so much.

do you consider psychology and sociology to be sciences then since they obviously predict all possible human behavior?

They actually attempt to predict and explain human behavior using evidence, and while in infancy and not very well developed, are resting far more under the category of science than economics is.

[Disco Pickle]

I gotta say that so far, DP sounds pretty reasonable

It's a testament to the fact that, while growing old is mandatory, growing UP is an option, that I found this the funniest damn thing I've read all week.

In fact, if economics was a science, it would consist mostly of the study of human irrationality.

It's always been a social science, unless I've been vastly misinformed.

It only exists within a primate social structure.

insects and reptiles have no reason to ever consider currency as an option for survival.

I may be missing your point here.

mine is that economics IS a science.  there are several "schools of thought" on the subject, but it is largely held (admittedly, by the same people who study it) as a social science.

I consider science to be a framework by which one describes and predicts actual reality, not a system of cognitive biases used to support whatever goddawful ideas make sense in the midst of an LSD trip. Therefore, not science. Which sucks, because if it were actually science maybe things wouldn't suck so much.

do you consider psychology and sociology to be sciences then since they obviously predict all possible human behavior?

They actually attempt to predict and explain human behavior using evidence, and while in infancy and not very well developed, are resting far more under the category of science than economics is.

I'm not saying that John Maynard Keynes wasn't some sort of voodoo magician or that his economics isn't shit, but you're basically discounting a pretty extensively studied subject because it doesn't conform to what you think a science should be or be able to predict.

paper and asset bubbles are pretty easy to predict under the Keynesian system we've been using.  There were plenty of people predicting this crash, but you didn't hear a peep out of the Treasury or the Fed for a very good reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c-VojI6awc&feature=related

I listen to this guy more than anyone else.  He's one of the people that seemed to be making the most sense to me since I first heard him.

[Doktor Howl]

That's how I operate (I use a visa debit card for stuff you can't do without a card) and it literally boggles my mind that almost everyone I know thinks it's weird or funny or quaint that I live within my means.

Many of them also frequently want to know how it is that I manage to live better on 30K a year than they do on 75K. I don't bother making the connection for them. Now that I'm pulling 45K and have virtually no expenses while on the ship, I can pretty much live like a goddamn king AND save money like it's going out of style, rather than deciding that making an extra 15K a year means I should find a way to spend an extra 20K a year.

I use a credit card, but I never allow the entire balance to exceed my savings account.

It's just too damn convenient.

[Disco Pickle]

Even social sciences (in theory) should be held up to some clear minimum on the science half of the deal.  Economics and International Relations (who have a lot of overlap, thanks to game theory and microeconomic modelling) are probably the two worst subjects when it comes to actually explaining the past or present, preferring instead to come up with a bunch of prescriptive theoretical models which align just barely with some facets of widely recognized phenomena.

I am having trouble finding the actual article on the game theory program that I initially read and led me to others..

but this site is a good start for anyone willing to put the time into reading things you didn't question before you read them.

http://brembs.net/evolution/ipd.html

I'm still working on rediscovering the better links..

the internet is a wasteland.

[Remington]

http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/internal?st=print&id=104052668&path=/news/local

Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground
Originally printed at http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Firefighters-watch-as-home-burns-to-the-ground-104052668.html

By Reporter - Jason Hibbs
By Photojournalist - Mark Owen
September 30, 2010
OBION COUNTY, Tenn. - Imagine your home catches fire but the local fire department won't respond, then watches it burn. That's exactly what happened to a local family tonight.

A local neighborhood is furious after firefighters watched as an Obion County, Tennessee, home burned to the ground.

The homeowner, Gene Cranick, said he offered to pay whatever it would take for firefighters to put out the flames, but was told it was too late.  They wouldn't do anything to stop his house from burning.

Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton.  But the Cranicks did not pay.

The mayor said if homeowners don't pay, they're out of luck.

Hooray for the Free Market!