Democrats planning to cut Social Security while acting as its protectors

[Adios]

Again, someone thinking I'm saying "fuck old people" when clearly I'm not.  Anything that was contributed, was promised to be paid back, and should be paid back.

The fact that people need(ed) it up until now indicates that they'll need it in the future.  What is your solution for disabled or feeble elderly people in the future?

See Soylent Green for details.

Meh, I need to back out of this one.

[Doktor Howl]

Again, someone thinking I'm saying "fuck old people" when clearly I'm not.  Anything that was contributed, was promised to be paid back, and should be paid back.

The fact that people need(ed) it up until now indicates that they'll need it in the future.  What is your solution for disabled or feeble elderly people in the future?

See Soylent Green for details.

Meh, I need to back out of this one.

Well, that was my thinking too, but I'd like to see HIS answer.

[Disco Pickle]

As to not blaming Older Folks for the government spending the money.  eh..  Those older folks were younger folks once, and voted for their government, sometimes leaving the same people in Congress for decades..   For any who didn't vote, or who didn't understand or who didn't care and just pulled the lever for anyone but "the other guy"

well, they got the government they deserved, and I have no sympathy for them..  and if I'm being honest, I harbor a general resentment of the baby boomers in general, as a generation, for the government they've kept in power.  Not saying they're all clueless idiots who followed the first lemming blindly off the cliff..  but damn if the largest voting population in history didn't set us on this course, I'm not sure who else did.

Dude that's fucking harsh.

Yeah so they may be responsible for whatever, but that's neither here nor there.

You need to take care of the elderly, they are people's parents and even if not they deserve a fucking decent standard of living like any other human being even when they're too old to work.

Plus there's always the question in how far "those people" were really responsible for their government. Last time I checked you have been playing this two-man Con for the better part of this century. I'm not too well educated on USA political history, but if I'm getting the OP ITT right, let's say you wanted to vote FOR social welfare last elections. You thought you were doing a good job by voting for teh Obama. BZZZZZZZZZZZZT apparently not. Would it have been better to vote the republican guy? Hell no. So third party, would that have helped? Let's say it would have. Do you think it would be fair if in 30 years when our kids are stuck with the crap that your government has made for them today, the kids would blame all the current-day US voters that didn't vote for the magical third-party rainbow unicorn?

Again, someone thinking I'm saying "fuck old people" when clearly I'm not.  Anything that was contributed, was promised to be paid back, and should be paid back.  Broad brushing me as a heartless human who wants old people to just die off is out of touch with the reality of ANYTHING I've tried to contribute to this thread.

What I did say, and yeah, it sounds pretty damn harsh, is this: the generation that contributed MOST to the fund, also put in place people all over the country who continue to vote for increased military spending, allowing the SS coffer to be raided for other things, and who's only solution to the liquidity problem is to raise the taxes on the children of that generation in order to sweep the misdeeds under the rug and cover for the massive inflation that will require more benefit paid out than is paid in, in cost of living increases.

So if I'm saying, "you made your bed, lie in it" then yeah, that part of my arguement is harsh, and pretty cut throat..  I'll be the first to admit that.

maybe I'm more like Dok than I'm really admitting, and just want to see the whole fuckin thing burn down.  Nearly every baby boomer I've had in depth conversations with has bought into the "us vs them" idea of Foreign Policy with regard to the middle east, advocated for bombing brown people who don't run their country like we would want them to, and tells me in plain words that every generation since theirs has just been shit and they get what they deserve for being a bunch of slackers and video game addicts and drug addicts.

How is that collective mindset any different?

Nice to know the world has remained static for the last 60 years. Seriously, it wasn't different then. Back in the good old days when only the Japanese were afraid of nuclear weapons. But I suppost 2/3 of them deserved to be afraid, didn't they?

So, thanks old timers, for doing your best to hold shit together so the kids have today, now GTFO and die, thanks,

yeah, Iran-Contra was really holding things together, wasn't it?

Setting up all of the pieces necessary for the Iranian Revolution, training "Freedom Fighters" in Afghanistan to fight "Dem Commie Reds"

Blank Check support for Israel, no matter what they might do to anyone else.

Supporting "Kuwaiti Independence" for British Petroleum interests.

Making sure Afghanistan is a modern day wasteland in order to ensure poppy field's aren't touched.

basically NTFYS on world politics and accepting what was spoon fed from D.C. special interests.

I'm reminded of a quote from THHGTTG: "Bloody apathetic planet, I've no sympathy at all"

Again, someone thinking I'm saying "fuck old people" when clearly I'm not.  Anything that was contributed, was promised to be paid back, and should be paid back.

The fact that people need(ed) it up until now indicates that they'll need it in the future.  What is your solution for disabled or feeble elderly people in the future?

See Soylent Green for details.

Meh, I need to back out of this one.

Well, that was my thinking too, but I'd like to see HIS answer.

If the system can remain liquid, I see no reason NOT to continue it.  This is a large hurdle that I believe can be overcome without complete collapse.  Hard decisions will have to be made that will make very powerful and influential people in the defense industry very angry.  Massive cuts to defense spending combined with a rational deflationary monetary policy that should mirror the drop in the birth rate and thus, drop in population and number of people entering the work force.

If wages will remain stagnant, and history has shown that they have compared to inflation, then controlled deflation should help us cover costs as well as allow a return to normal prices compared to wages. 

[Doktor Howl]

yeah, Iran-Contra was really holding things together, wasn't it?

Setting up all of the pieces necessary for the Iranian Revolution, training "Freedom Fighters" in Afghanistan to fight "Dem Commie Reds"

Blank Check support for Israel, no matter what they might do to anyone else.

Supporting "Kuwaiti Independence" for British Petroleum interests.

Making sure Afghanistan is a modern day wasteland in order to ensure poppy field's aren't touched.

basically NTFYS on world politics and accepting what was spoon fed from D.C. special interests.

I'm reminded of a quote from THHGTTG: "Bloody apathetic planet, I've no sympathy at all"

So, because some things were bad, all things are bad.

If the system can remain liquid, I see no reason NOT to continue it.  This is a large hurdle that I believe can be overcome without complete collapse.  Hard decisions will have to be made that will make very powerful and influential people in the defense industry very angry.  Massive cuts to defense spending combined with a rational deflationary monetary policy that should mirror the drop in the birth rate and thus, drop in population and number of people entering the work force.

If wages will remain stagnant, and history has shown that they have compared to inflation, then controlled deflation should help us cover costs as well as allow a return to normal prices compared to wages. 

Controlled deflation?  Please elaborate.

[Disco Pickle]

and before you say it, no, I did not read that from some LP page or other.

can't remember the last time I was on one actually.  A lot of those fuckers are off their rocker survivalist types that rub me the wrong way.

[Disco Pickle]

Posted by: Doktor Howl
Insert Quote
Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on Today at 08:54:59 AM


yeah, Iran-Contra was really holding things together, wasn't it?

Setting up all of the pieces necessary for the Iranian Revolution, training "Freedom Fighters" in Afghanistan to fight "Dem Commie Reds"

Blank Check support for Israel, no matter what they might do to anyone else.

Supporting "Kuwaiti Independence" for British Petroleum interests.

Making sure Afghanistan is a modern day wasteland in order to ensure poppy field's aren't touched.

basically NTFYS on world politics and accepting what was spoon fed from D.C. special interests.

I'm reminded of a quote from THHGTTG: "Bloody apathetic planet, I've no sympathy at all"


So, because some things were bad, all things are bad.

those stand out, because we have proof of their stupidity in the way they manifest in current world affairs.

just because other's didn't bear fruit that requires future generations to mop up the mess, doesn't mean we should have still done them.

and it also doesn't mean the consequences will not or could not be felt in the future.  I don't think we should be exporting democracy (whatever that is) and taking a "fumbling virgin in the dark" approach to foreign policy and military involvement in other soverign countries affairs.

what I mean by controlled deflation is this:  after whatever recovery from this recession we will have, the inflation inherent in the system that pumped trillions of dollars in will begin to manifest in the sorts of conditions that existed in the 70's..  except there will not likely be as many people demanding higher wages, as there will not be as many people working.  Stagflation of the economy, while always a potential risk, will likely only be garden variety high inflation, while wages stay stagnant. 

The Fed will have to raise interest rates, like Volker did in the 80's, to rein in the money supply.  The cost of borrowing will go up, while encouraging more savings as interest rates rise.  This should be sustained as reasonably as possible, allowing the prices of goods, property, etc to come down to levels that resemble reality based on the prevailing wage and people's ability to borrow against their own collateral and savings. 

Combine this with a push to buy up a large amount of our own countries reserves being held in foreign banks and return them to this country as collateral, reducing our debt pile, including buying a significant amount of China's Silver reserves (assuming they're still on the market) and giving this country a firm financial base on which to stand, maybe for the first time in decades.

There will be pain for some.  That cannot be discounted.  but the alternative is to continue to push off a real recovery on the next generation, when recession after recession, it becomes clear that they get worse and worse without adressing the fundamental problems in the money supply as it relates to real wages and savings rates.

We cannot compete in the global market with countries like china and mexico providing much lower labor costs, without trying to bring our own cost of labor down.  THe only rational way to do that is to lower prices in a controlled manner and allow wages to fall behind them.  If Inflation has always out paced wages, then the rational push to be competitive is to let wages follow deflation of the dollar.

THe concept of "Standard of Living" is based on the inflation in the system, since there's no longer a rational basis for the value of the dollar other than the collective delusion of the people using it.  Use this to everyone's advantage and bring our "price to wage" ration back to normal levels.

[Disco Pickle]

if it's alright with you spags, I want to re post this last post in a new thread.  I'd love some feedback on this, as It's an idea I've formulated out of my own reading, not something I copied and pasted.

I want to hear arguments for and against, and I want cannonball size holes shot in it where appropriate so I can go back and polish it as an idea and work out any bugs that CAN be worked out.

[Disco Pickle]

man, I sure can clear a thread.

[Adios]

Your post on those so called economics stunk the place up pretty bad.

[Disco Pickle]

Your post on those so called economics stunk the place up pretty bad.

I was discussing methods to fund SS, while simultaniously reducing the inflation inherent in requiring "cost of living increases"

benefiting all of us.

denying no one.

if economics stinks up a thread discussing the paying of SS, you guys are not talking about the world as it exists, but as you want it to exist.

doesn't mean I don't appreciate you giving me your point of view, but if you're discounting economics out of hand as an issue that needs to be a part of the discussion, then I think you may need to rethink that position.

[Phox]

Hello Pot, have you met Kettle? 

[Freeky]

Hello Pot, have you met Kettle? 

[Thurnez Isa]

ACTUALLY THE REAL PROBLEMS TO SS IS

VETERANS

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/simpson-veterans-not-helping-us-save-country-from-debt.php

If Social Security is "a cow with 310 million tits"  then what's the proper metaphor for veteran's benefits? We don't know. But Alan Simpson seems to think they're too expensive. Or too overused. Or something. Anyway, it's bad.

"The irony (is) that the veterans who saved this country are now, in a way, not helping us to save the country in this fiscal mess," said Alan Simpson, co-chair of the White House's fiscal commission, according to the Associated Press.

Simpson was referring specifically to the disability benefits the Department of Veterans Affairs dispenses to Vietnam veterans exposed to Agent Orange.

According to AP, Simpson declined to comment on whether this issue would be examined by the commission. But as TPM has reported, some members of the commission have sought to prioritize cuts to service members and veteran benefits over other defense spending cuts.

The AP has also reported that Vietnam veterans are more frequently compensated for diabetes than for every other ailment, besides no sure link between the disease and Agent Orange. In 1991 Congress created a system of automatic benefits for Vietnam veterans who were or may have been exposed to Agent Orange.

wow
can he be anymore of douche?

[Adios]

ACTUALLY THE REAL PROBLEMS TO SS IS

VETERANS

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/simpson-veterans-not-helping-us-save-country-from-debt.php

If Social Security is "a cow with 310 million tits"  then what's the proper metaphor for veteran's benefits? We don't know. But Alan Simpson seems to think they're too expensive. Or too overused. Or something. Anyway, it's bad.

"The irony (is) that the veterans who saved this country are now, in a way, not helping us to save the country in this fiscal mess," said Alan Simpson, co-chair of the White House's fiscal commission, according to the Associated Press.

Simpson was referring specifically to the disability benefits the Department of Veterans Affairs dispenses to Vietnam veterans exposed to Agent Orange.

According to AP, Simpson declined to comment on whether this issue would be examined by the commission. But as TPM has reported, some members of the commission have sought to prioritize cuts to service members and veteran benefits over other defense spending cuts.

The AP has also reported that Vietnam veterans are more frequently compensated for diabetes than for every other ailment, besides no sure link between the disease and Agent Orange. In 1991 Congress created a system of automatic benefits for Vietnam veterans who were or may have been exposed to Agent Orange.

wow
can he be anymore of douche?

What a prick.

[Don Coyote]

Did he just say it is the fault of nam vets because they are getting care for being exposed to agent orange without knowing that at the time it would have bad bad health consequences?