REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[AFK]

I don't think kids should be smoking weed. At all. You don't need to be fucking with your brain chemistry when you're going through puberty.

You know, if you would just get over your self-righteous soapbox, you'd see that you agree with RWHN, and with what he's doing.

I (and I suspect Jude as well) support what RWHN does regardless of the legality of marijuana (medicinal or otherwise), it would make his job harder, but Jude's entire point is that the ends don't justify the means.

The same can be said for legalizing marijuana.  

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Let's just cut through all the bullshit, here.

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  Sound off.

Who thinks pot is fine?  Sound off.

Who thinks pot should land someone in prison?  Sound off.

Who thinks pot should carry a lesser sentence (fine, etc)?  Sound off.

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?  Sound off.

Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?  Sound off.

Just so we can get a feel for where people stand without a pack of loaded words and inflammatory crap.  We've had this discussion about 10 million times, and EVERY TIME it becomes rancorous.  Let's see if FOR ONCE, we can continue the conversation without half of the participants pissing off the other half, and without the usual condescending "I'm talking to an idiot" nonsense.

The way to do this is to establish WHERE everyone stands, so we can cut out the appeal to assbaggery arguments.

[Requia ☣]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  Yes

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?  Yes

Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?  God no.

(other questions left out for redundancy)

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I can only speak to Maine MEs, as part of my training for my profession involved a few presentations by the Chief ME for the State.  And the impression I got, is that if they can't conclusively say from the medical evidence and the police reports that something contributed to a death, they don't list it as part of the COD.  It certainly will still be part of the tox screen, but it only gets listed as a contributing factor if the evidence says it is.  And FTR, that same report for Maine did have zero deaths. 

Yeah I noticed that as well... some states have 0 deaths and some have like 80... which seems like a really crazy difference. So maybe each state has a different basis for what they report to DAWN?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  Sound off. Yes

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?  Sound off. Yes

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  I think pot is a bad idea for some people... just like alcohol or coffee. Or in TGRR's case beans. I also think its bad for young people, or anyone who uses it as an escape.

Who thinks pot is fine?  I think pot is fine for me, and for most everyone I know that enjoys it and still holds down a real job and can handle their responsibilities.

Who thinks pot should land someone in prison?  If someone sells to minors, they should go to prison.

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?  I think this is probably the best solution.

Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?  I would love to be allowed to grow my own, but I accept that its extremely unlikely in the US for the government to allow that kind of unregulated behavior.

[LMNO]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  Yup.

Who thinks pot is fine?  Probably not.

Who thinks pot should land someone in prison?  No.

Who thinks pot should carry a lesser sentence (fine, etc)?  Yes.

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?  At the very least.

Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?  No.

FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS:

Have you ever gotten high?  Yes.

If 'yes', were you a frequent user (1+ times a week)? Yes.

Do you still get high, if you used to?  No.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

There's fairly good evidence that pot has a negative effect on cognitive abilities for up to a month after a user quits (especially for heavy users), so I'm not entirely sure its wrong to call a deadly accident weed related just based on the tox screen.

I think there are a lot of competing studies which agree, disagree and wander off into left field... which are you referencing?

[AFK]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea? It's a bad idea for kids because it fucks them up during a crucial time of development.  And given that brain development continues into the mid 20s or later, I think it is generally a bad idea for young adults as well.  But of course, we have the long history of allowing young adults to consume alcohol, so socially, it's probably a moot point.  

Who thinks pot is fine?  Philosophically, I think it is fine for adults.  Practically, there is no way to legalize it for adults in a way that doesn't impact kids by increasing access.  

Who thinks pot should land someone in prison? If they are trafficking or commit a violent offense, yes.  If it is simple possession, no.  

Who thinks pot should carry a lesser sentence (fine, etc)?  I advocate for Drug Courts for individuals who are assessed to have a dependency on marijuana.  For those who don't meet that threshold and are more casual users, I'd be okay with a graduated fine structure and community service, where the community service must be with an organization that works in the field of substance abuse prevention or treatment.  

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol?  No way.  I'd like to keep that toothpaste in the tube.  

Who thinks pot should be completely unregulated in any way?  Would end very badly.  

[Requia ☣]

There's fairly good evidence that pot has a negative effect on cognitive abilities for up to a month after a user quits (especially for heavy users), so I'm not entirely sure its wrong to call a deadly accident weed related just based on the tox screen.

I think there are a lot of competing studies which agree, disagree and wander off into left field... which are you referencing?

Don't have the citations on me, and its a pain in the ass to look through the drug research database.  But basically they split a bunch of people who agreed to quit into groups based on usage level (where heavy users showed worse cognitive performance than light users) then marked improvement over the course of a month (by which time there was no difference between heavy users and light users).  The study was repeated later (with slightly different results thanks to the addition of a very heavy users category, who didn't catch up to the light users).

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Don't have the citations on me,

[El Sjaako]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  Pot can be a bad idea. Just like alcohol, or bungee jumping.

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol? Almost: I'd add the no advertising clause that tobacco has. Also, Alcohol and Weed should not be sold from the same places, and probably shouldn't be consumed at the same public places. Split up the weed cafes and bars.

To be clear: I think that pot should be legal for anyone who can get himself blown up for his country (18+) because:

Keeping it illegal costs a lot of money, and making it legal could raise tax money. The cost of treatment won't go up much, because experience has shown usage wont go up much.

The government telling me I can't inhale certain things is bullshit.

Making something legal does not equal sending an approving message, and even if it did:

The Government sending a prodrug message wont make much of a difference, Hollywood and the music industry have been sending that message for years, and they are way more influential.

Making pot legal might create more respect for the people that solve murders. I'm not an anarchist, and I think the police does a lot of stuff I agree needs to be done. But for now: fuck the police.

(I can't understand anyone not agreeing with anything I say below this point, and if you do I'd love to understand)

I think pot is less bad for people than alcohol is.

I think that there should be as many treatment facilities as needed, and that there will be fewer facilities needed than for alcohol.

I think making it illegal causes more harm than good. Especially if you include the violence in Mexico. Even more so if you don't consider young black people, in prison for drug charges, used as slave labor to be an advantage.

Some people really enjoy pot.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Who thinks pot is probably a bad idea?  Pot can be a bad idea. Just like alcohol, or bungee jumping.

Who thinks pot should be legal under the same conditions as alcohol? Almost: I'd add the no advertising clause that tobacco has. Also, Alcohol and Weed should not be sold from the same places, and probably shouldn't be consumed at the same public places. Split up the weed cafes and bars.

To be clear: I think that pot should be legal for anyone who can get himself blown up for his country (18+) because:

Keeping it illegal costs a lot of money, and making it legal could raise tax money. The cost of treatment won't go up much, because experience has shown usage wont go up much.

The government telling me I can't inhale certain things is bullshit.

Making something legal does not equal sending an approving message, and even if it did:

The Government sending a prodrug message wont make much of a difference, Hollywood and the music industry have been sending that message for years, and they are way more influential.

Making pot legal might create more respect for the people that solve murders. I'm not an anarchist, and I think the police does a lot of stuff I agree needs to be done. But for now: fuck the police.

(I can't understand anyone not agreeing with anything I say below this point, and if you do I'd love to understand)

I think pot is less bad for people than alcohol is.

I think that there should be as many treatment facilities as needed, and that there will be fewer facilities needed than for alcohol.

I think making it illegal causes more harm than good. Especially if you include the violence in Mexico. Even more so if you don't consider young black people, in prison for drug charges, used as slave labor to be an advantage.

Some people really enjoy pot.

I can buy into most of that.

Mostly because I think the individual outweighs society.

[AFK]

I will just point out that the "legalize it and tax it" idea is no good.  I can say that from the experience of alcohol and tobacco.  I think we can agree that alcohol and tobacco sales are considerable.  Yet, they really aren't very big revenue generators for States and certainly aren't enough to support budgets and keep them in the black. 

Further, history also shows that those revenues don't go towards treatment or prevention.  Instead, Governors will make sure that revenue goes into their general funds, and nary a dime of it will go into treatment or prevention.  Fuck, my state has a fund that comes from the big Tobacco settlement from a decade ago.  Funds that are supposed to be specifically for prevention and treatment for tobacco, substance abuse, and other health areas.  Even THOSE dedicated funds are being stolen and put into the general fund. 

Based upon this experience alone, I can say the "tax it" idea just doesn't hold up. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I will just point out that the "legalize it and tax it" idea is no good.  I can say that from the experience of alcohol and tobacco.  I think we can agree that alcohol and tobacco sales are considerable.  Yet, they really aren't very big revenue generators for States and certainly aren't enough to support budgets and keep them in the black. 

Further, history also shows that those revenues don't go towards treatment or prevention.  Instead, Governors will make sure that revenue goes into their general funds, and nary a dime of it will go into treatment or prevention.  Fuck, my state has a fund that comes from the big Tobacco settlement from a decade ago.  Funds that are supposed to be specifically for prevention and treatment for tobacco, substance abuse, and other health areas.  Even THOSE dedicated funds are being stolen and put into the general fund. 

Based upon this experience alone, I can say the "tax it" idea just doesn't hold up. 

I don't think most of the current proponents of tax it think the money should go to treatment... most of the arguments I've heard are about dumping it into the state budget.

However, the tax issue is moot for me because, for me, its an issue of freedom for the individual.