REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[Luna]

Please separate the legalization for MEDICAL use from the legalization for RECREATIONAL use.  Two completely different issues which get tangled up all too often.

[El Sjaako]

It is only a myth in as much as marijuana isn't the ONLY gateway drug.  But it certainly does serve as a gateway drug.  Gateway drugs have less to do with the drug itself and more to do with access.  Marijuana is a gateway drug because it is fairly easy for a young person to get.  All experimentation starts with drugs that are easy to get.  Inhalants and Rx are also gateway drugs, because a kid can get them right in their house without paying anybody for them.  These are particularily scary gateway drugs in that the first use can kill or cause serious brain damage.   

I'm still not sure what a gateway drug is. Do you mean a gateway drug is a drug that is easy to get? Could you please give a definition that I can apply that proves marijuana is a gateway drug but sugar isn't?

That article doesn't actually declare that consumption won't go up.  It basically says, "we don't know", which isn't exactly no.  It also doesn't address the fact that a price drop is certainly going to increase access to minors.  It also doesn't address the fact that legalizing would invariably lead to more adults having marijuana in the home which will also increase access to youth. 

I was very careful with my wording. There is no evidence it will go up. Many teenagers report that pot is easier to get than alcohol, so one could argue that availability will go down. There is no real evidence either way, except that past experience in the Netherlands has shown that usage or availability won't change much (for minors at least).

And given the marketing and advertising culture in America, do you think that would really happen?  Tobacco and Alcohol companies still find very clever ways to market to youth, despite regulations.  You put up a hurdle, they find a way around it.  And they are pretty good at that too. 

But it's no longer very effective is it? It all pales in comparison to the current Hollywood marketing of pot, which won't change much.

How do you come to that figure?  Surveys I see show that it is far less than 100% of kids who think marijuana is easy to get.  So while it certainly is accessible, it is incorrect to say availability is at 100%. 

That same article:

Meanwhile, according to national surveys, high school students continue to report that marijuana is universally available, purity has increased and prices have fallen.

I remember when I was 16. It was hard to find pot, in fact I don't think I managed even once (sometimes friends had some, but I never had any for myself). It was way easier to get alcohol at 16. I doubt there are many children in the US who want pot, but can't get it.

I don't agree with the notion that the merits of the legalization debate of marijuana have to be measure against alcohol.  I always see that as a bit of obfuscation and basically a smoke screen.  (pun unintended).  Yes, certainly, alcohol is pretty damaging to youth and families, but I don't see how that means we should go ahead and legalize another substance, just because it seems to be less harmful.  It still is not harmless. 

What I meant is that the law is ridiculous, and many of the same consequences that were seen when booze was illegal are seen today with pot. Do you think alcohol should be made illegal? Why not? Those are probably the same reasons I think pot should be legal.

[El Sjaako]

Please separate the legalization for MEDICAL use from the legalization for RECREATIONAL use.  Two completely different issues which get tangled up all too often.

I never really got this. To me, medical marijuana should be legal because it can make life better for sick people, and recreational marijuana can improve life for people that enjoy marijuana. I can't think of any downside of recreational marijuana that doesn't also happen with medical marijuana (although sometimes on a smaller scale.)

[Luna]

medical marijuana should be legal because it can make life better for sick people,

This part I agree with.  The fear of and the fact that it will be (and IS) abused doesn't keep morphine from being legal, for example.

and recreational marijuana can improve life for people that enjoy marijuana. I can't think of any downside of recreational marijuana that doesn't also happen with medical marijuana (although sometimes on a smaller scale.)

There are downsides to a lot of prescription medications.  Hell, listen to the list of, "warning, these pills here will fucking your shit" disclaimers on ads for the shit.  (And why the FUCK do we need ADS for prescription medication, anyway?  But that's a whole different bitchfest.) 

[AFK]

I'm still not sure what a gateway drug is. Do you mean a gateway drug is a drug that is easy to get? Could you please give a definition that I can apply that proves marijuana is a gateway drug but sugar isn't?

Yes.  And as I stated marijuana isn't the only gateway drug, but it is one of the more popular ones amongst youth.  Rx drugs and inhalants are also gateway drugs, in that it is the drug that many youth will experiment with first.  It's basically the substance that is the gate between experimentation and regular use/dependency.  And generally, it is going to be your more easily accessible drugs.  It is rare you are going to see a kid start at cocaine or heroin.  Sugar is not a gateway drug because you don't see very many kids who move from regular sugar buzzes to injecting heroin in their arms.  

Now, caffeinated beverages (non-coffee) is another story, and probably another thread.  I do believe that has some gateway attributes and I predict 10 years from now, or sooner, we will see studies that link regular consumption of those beverages to other forms of drug use.  

I was very careful with my wording. There is no evidence it will go up. Many teenagers report that pot is easier to get than alcohol, so one could argue that availability will go down. There is no real evidence either way, except that past experience in the Netherlands has shown that usage or availability won't change much (for minors at least).

I don't see a valid argument for how it could go down.  Especially if the price drops.  And especially if you are going to see it in more homes.  Retail and social access are fundamental factors in substance abuse.  Legalizing is going to increase both.  

And given the marketing and advertising culture in America, do you think that would really happen?  Tobacco and Alcohol companies still find very clever ways to market to youth, despite regulations.  You put up a hurdle, they find a way around it.  And they are pretty good at that too. 

But it's no longer very effective is it? It all pales in comparison to the current Hollywood marketing of pot, which won't change much.

No longer effective?  Of course its effective.  Not to mention that any MJ marketing companies would certainly be in bed with Hollywood to push the product as alcohol and tobacco companies have been.  

How do you come to that figure?  Surveys I see show that it is far less than 100% of kids who think marijuana is easy to get.  So while it certainly is accessible, it is incorrect to say availability is at 100%. 

That same article:

Meanwhile, according to national surveys, high school students continue to report that marijuana is universally available, purity has increased and prices have fallen.

I remember when I was 16. It was hard to find pot, in fact I don't think I managed even once (sometimes friends had some, but I never had any for myself). It was way easier to get alcohol at 16. I doubt there are many children in the US who want pot, but can't get it.

Well, there must be, because surveys don't show 100% of kids saying marijuana is easily accessible.  The number is high, certainly, but it isn't 100%.  

What I meant is that the law is ridiculous, and many of the same consequences that were seen when booze was illegal are seen today with pot. Do you think alcohol should be made illegal? Why not? Those are probably the same reasons I think pot should be legal.

It's not something I think about because that toothpaste is already out of the tube, and it isn't going back in.  The marijuana toothpaste is still in the tube, and I think any possible benefits of freeing that toothpaste, our considerably outweighed by the social and economic costs.  Not to mention that the world is very different than it was back in the days of prohibition.  I don't believe in this 1-to-1 comparison of alcohol prohibition and marijuana prohibition.  To borrow the Black Iron Prison motif, it ignores a lot of bars.  

[AFK]

Please separate the legalization for MEDICAL use from the legalization for RECREATIONAL use.  Two completely different issues which get tangled up all too often.

I never really got this. To me, medical marijuana should be legal because it can make life better for sick people, and recreational marijuana can improve life for people that enjoy marijuana. I can't think of any downside of recreational marijuana that doesn't also happen with medical marijuana (although sometimes on a smaller scale.)

Medical Marijuana may have some promise, but as is suggested here there is no consensus on that promise being in the smoked form. 

[Luna]

Please separate the legalization for MEDICAL use from the legalization for RECREATIONAL use.  Two completely different issues which get tangled up all too often.

I never really got this. To me, medical marijuana should be legal because it can make life better for sick people, and recreational marijuana can improve life for people that enjoy marijuana. I can't think of any downside of recreational marijuana that doesn't also happen with medical marijuana (although sometimes on a smaller scale.)

Medical Marijuana may have some promise, but as is suggested here there is no consensus on that promise being in the smoked form. 

Hell, if that's the best way to get it into the system (I hold no opinion on that, as I haven't bothered to do the research), they can roll 'em in dollar bills and shove it up their asses for all I care.  I just object to the research being borked because of hysteria regarding, "ooh, but people might ENJOY it!  And it's BAD for them!"

I also tend to be snotty about the fact that non-THC bearing hemp is ALSO banned in the USA, when the stuff is so damn useful. 

[AFK]

And my problem is with the promises being overstated and oversold.  I agree that the debate does get muddied by the debate over recreational use, but it cuts both ways.  I think some (I stress the word some) are using medical marijuana as a way to further legitimize marijuana itself, by proxy.  And yes, certainly some people are very puritanical and don't want any medical marijuana research.  I'm fairly moderate on that and see no problem researching it.  I am just wary with how results are presented and how it is sold to the general public. 

[Luna]

And my problem is with the promises being overstated and oversold.  I agree that the debate does get muddied by the debate over recreational use, but it cuts both ways.  I think some (I stress the word some) are using medical marijuana as a way to further legitimize marijuana itself, by proxy.  And yes, certainly some people are very puritanical and don't want any medical marijuana research.  I'm fairly moderate on that and see no problem researching it.  I am just wary with how results are presented and how it is sold to the general public. 

Hence me griping about it being two separate issues, agreed. 

My own take...  It SHOULD be investigated and legalized for medical use.  Honest to fuck, if it brings ANY relief to people dying of cancer, does it really matter what the long-term effects are? These people may not HAVE a long term...

Recreational use?  Having lived with a recreational user, the stuff's less dangerous for people to use than alcohol, I suppose, simply based on the fact that you rarely hear about somebody getting stoned and beating the fuck out of their partner and/or kids, or of getting stoned, getting behind a wheel, and taking out a dozen pedestrians.  I don't particularly care one way or the other, but I'd like to see studies done comparing it to alcohol, rather than harder drugs.

[East Coast Hustle]

I think if it makes terminally ill people feel better, it's nobody else's fucking business to raise points of contention over any other aspect of it in regards to being legally available for medicinal use at the federal level.

[AFK]

I don't believe it should be determined by comparison to other drugs, but that it should be determined on its own merits.  Marijuana use does contribute to behavioral issues and can contribute to deaths as is indicated in statistics I posted earlier in the thread.  That some can use it safely, alone, IMO, does not give justification for legalization.  Much that some can use an automatic weapons safely, for recreational use, can justify legalizing the sale and ownership of such weapons.  (And no, I'm obviously aware of the differences in lethality of the two, but it is an appropriate analogy if we are looking at it through the personal freedom lens.)

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As far as I can tell, marijuana is vastly less damaging than alcohol.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

As far as I can tell, marijuana is vastly less damaging than alcohol.

But not as Holy™ as cactus.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's also cheaper than alcohol.

I don't think I know more than a couple of people who don't smoke pot, and they don't because they don't really like it, not because they have any particular qualms about using it.

If my kids were to choose between pot and alcohol, I'd rather they smoke pot. I'm also honest with them that some drugs are WAY worse than others. I really think the "war on drugs" fucked up badly by equating pot with crack, and the whole "gateway drug" thing. All that taught kids is that adults are liars.

I think there may be a bit of a regional cultural difference between Maine and Oregon, though.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As far as I can tell, marijuana is vastly less damaging than alcohol.

But not as Holy™ as cactus.

I gotta try that stuff sometime!