REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[AFK]

I don't believe it should be determined by comparison to other drugs, but that it should be determined on its own merits.  Marijuana use does contribute to behavioral issues and can contribute to deaths as is indicated in statistics I posted earlier in the thread.  That some can use it safely, alone, IMO, does not give justification for legalization.  Much that some can use an automatic weapons safely, for recreational use, can justify legalizing the sale and ownership of such weapons.  (And no, I'm obviously aware of the differences in lethality of the two, but it is an appropriate analogy if we are looking at it through the personal freedom lens.)

The reason I think it should be compared to other drugs is that people tend to have a certain amount of time and money to devote to recreational drug use. Some people have a certain favorite, they're going to do that drug and not any other.  Most people though, especcially light drug users are going to use what is cheap and easily available.  Currently that's alcohol.

On a point by point comparison weed is less harmful to the user and less dangerous to the surrounding community than alcohol.  If it were equally expensive and equally available to alcohol it would steal some market share from alcohol and that would be a good thing.

What you say has some validity, from an adult perspective.  Youth have entirely different motivations when it comes to drug use.  What you are talking about is almost a drug connoisseur.  Kids aren't thinking like that, they just want to put into their body whatever will push the magic buttons in their head that will make them feel different and/or forget about the world of shit they live in. 

[AFK]

I also would like to point out that a lot of the discussion around the Mexican cartels is a little conflationary.  In the sense that those cartels are increaslingly becoming involved in the illegal prescription drug trade.  Whether it is trafficking or creating knock-offs and working them into the system.  Legalizing marijuana may take care of a few small time operations that are solely focusing on marijuana, but the large crime organizations are diversified enough, that it won't really make that big of an impact.  And so you really won't be saving a whole helluva lot of money in that area.  Just something to think about. 

They do make money from other sources, RX drugs as well as cocaine are big sources of income.  However they make the majority of their income from weed.

Legalization would likely not eliminate the cartels, but it would weaken them considerably.  Even if they managed to capture the entire black market in the US for RX drugs, Cocaine, Heroin and Meth (and meth is highly unlikely since it is easier for locals to produce it in most cases) this wouldn't be as large a market as the pot market.

I don't know about that.  I think the cartels would instead look at synthetics and variations to marijuana to compete with the regulated versions.  Either way, I think the point stands that they cartels will still be significant operations, and thus, really isn't going to be the silver bullet to solve the cartel violence/crime issue. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

As an aside, one thing I've noticed about the older Discordians is that we've all seriously slowed our roll on drugs and alcohol as we've aged.

[Luna]

As an aside, one thing I've noticed about the older Discordians is that we've all seriously slowed our roll on drugs and alcohol as we've aged.

I've drank more in the last year than I have in my entire life to date, I think I can safely say.  But there are factors.

[LMNO]

Less drugs, more sex and rock'n'roll.





And then, in the end, it's just more rock'n'roll.

[AFK]

RWHN enjoys a nice adult beverage every now and again.  That's about it.

RWHN,
Sex, Puns, and Heavy Metal!

[El Sjaako]

I'm still not sure what a gateway drug is. Do you mean a gateway drug is a drug that is easy to get? Could you please give a definition that I can apply that proves marijuana is a gateway drug but sugar isn't?

Yes.  And as I stated marijuana isn't the only gateway drug, but it is one of the more popular ones amongst youth.  Rx drugs and inhalants are also gateway drugs, in that it is the drug that many youth will experiment with first.  It's basically the substance that is the gate between experimentation and regular use/dependency.  And generally, it is going to be your more easily accessible drugs.  It is rare you are going to see a kid start at cocaine or heroin.  Sugar is not a gateway drug because you don't see very many kids who move from regular sugar buzzes to injecting heroin in their arms.  

I am now going to stay out of the debate, as I'm not going to change my opinion (because I've had too many good times on weed, and all the people I have seen that were really fucked up on pot would have been that way whether or not it was illegal), and you are also not going to change your opinion.

I am still curious on what exactly you mean with gateway drug, though. Could you phrase it as a definition? For example:

Definition: A drug is a gateway drug if and only if it's effects and social status cause users to start using other drugs.

[LMNO]

Are you fucking retarded, or have you finally burned out your last cognitive braincell?

The last three pages are more or less devoted to what a gateway drug "is".

[BabylonHoruv]

I don't believe it should be determined by comparison to other drugs, but that it should be determined on its own merits.  Marijuana use does contribute to behavioral issues and can contribute to deaths as is indicated in statistics I posted earlier in the thread.  That some can use it safely, alone, IMO, does not give justification for legalization.  Much that some can use an automatic weapons safely, for recreational use, can justify legalizing the sale and ownership of such weapons.  (And no, I'm obviously aware of the differences in lethality of the two, but it is an appropriate analogy if we are looking at it through the personal freedom lens.)

The reason I think it should be compared to other drugs is that people tend to have a certain amount of time and money to devote to recreational drug use. Some people have a certain favorite, they're going to do that drug and not any other.  Most people though, especcially light drug users are going to use what is cheap and easily available.  Currently that's alcohol.

On a point by point comparison weed is less harmful to the user and less dangerous to the surrounding community than alcohol.  If it were equally expensive and equally available to alcohol it would steal some market share from alcohol and that would be a good thing.

What you say has some validity, from an adult perspective.  Youth have entirely different motivations when it comes to drug use.  What you are talking about is almost a drug connoisseur.  Kids aren't thinking like that, they just want to put into their body whatever will push the magic buttons in their head that will make them feel different and/or forget about the world of shit they live in. 

I'd prefer the kids were pushing those buttons with weed rather than inhalants, RX drugs, DXM or Alcohol.

Yeah, I'd prefer it even more if they were pushing them with exercise, video games, or masturbation but I think some of them are going to turn to drugs no matter what and I'd really prefer that drug were weed to any other option I can think of.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I also would like to point out that a lot of the discussion around the Mexican cartels is a little conflationary.  In the sense that those cartels are increaslingly becoming involved in the illegal prescription drug trade.  Whether it is trafficking or creating knock-offs and working them into the system.  Legalizing marijuana may take care of a few small time operations that are solely focusing on marijuana, but the large crime organizations are diversified enough, that it won't really make that big of an impact.  And so you really won't be saving a whole helluva lot of money in that area.  Just something to think about.  

They do make money from other sources, RX drugs as well as cocaine are big sources of income.  However they make the majority of their income from weed.

Legalization would likely not eliminate the cartels, but it would weaken them considerably.  Even if they managed to capture the entire black market in the US for RX drugs, Cocaine, Heroin and Meth (and meth is highly unlikely since it is easier for locals to produce it in most cases) this wouldn't be as large a market as the pot market.

I don't know about that.  I think the cartels would instead look at synthetics and variations to marijuana to compete with the regulated versions.  Either way, I think the point stands that they cartels will still be significant operations, and thus, really isn't going to be the silver bullet to solve the cartel violence/crime issue.  

When pot was legalized in the Netherlands, the rate of usage fell, then rose above previous levels, then returned to about the same rate.

The people who studied this said, IIRC, that the drop was due to people not knowing where to go to get their weed as legit businesses replaced the black market dealers. They can't compete with a nice reliable, respectable business.

The temporary rise was associated with people who decided to experiment with it who weren't curious enough to try it when it was illegal. If you're aware that this was temporary, RWHN, then it seems dishonest to leave out that crucial fact.

But after this temporary rise it returned to the same levels before it was legalized (rates in line with regional trends, regardless of legalization status), which is usually left out as a lie by omission by anti-drug types. That increase that you're harping on is temporary and arguably offset by the preceding transition period where people use it less because it is harder to find. People who don't like pot aren't going to suddenly like pot when it becomes legal. People with no interest aren't going to suddenly decide to do it because the laws changed.

And why would they? If pot was made legal tomorrow, would you go out and try some?

Furthermore, the drug war harms entire families more than marijuana is ever capable of. How are taking parent's houses, locking up parents, putting parent's deep into debt, and preventing kids from receiving financial aid not severe costs? These things effect children in much more profound ways since it disrupts their family's ability to provide for them as well as putting higher education farther out of reach.

When kids are getting high, it doesn't prevent them from having a roof over their heads, it doesn't prevent them from affording medical care, it doesn't place their parent behind bars, it doesn't remove food from their mouths, it doesn't place their family in suffocating debt. It can damage them for sure, but let's compare the actual damage done by the drug to the actual damage done to entire families by the drug laws.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

IMO the legalization issue is far less pertinent to keeping kids off drugs than repairing the social, emotional, and economic damage that leads to kids who want to use drugs.

I'm in Portland. Weed is EVERYWHERE here. I've had people knock on my door offering me weed. Most of it is grown locally or in California, and it's dirt cheap.

My kids can probably get weed more easily than alcohol. They get mimosas on major holidays but it's just not that available to them. Well, unless they steal my wine, but since I haven't been drinking much lately, and not at home at all, there isn't any for them to steal. I bet, though, that within a year or two the older ones will know someone who's dealing pot. So, my job as a parent is to provide them with information, productive hobbies and activities, an education, and emotional support in the hopes that when they decide to experiment with drugs and alcohol, they do it in a way that is safe, limited, and not detrimental to their overall development. For instance, my line on pot is that it's not bad in and of itself, but people often overuse it and that interferes with their lives and doing things they want to do. My line on meth, however, is that it is poison and will ruin your life, or at the very least your personality.

I am betting that in ten years, my kids will have tried alcohol and pot, but not meth, cocaine, or anything that goes in a needle. I am betting none of them will be addicts, or use any drugs to a detrimental degree.

Get back to me in ten years, and we'll see if my methods were effective.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

IMO the legalization issue is far less pertinent to keeping kids off drugs than repairing the social, emotional, and economic damage that leads to kids who want to use drugs.

I'm in Portland. Weed is EVERYWHERE here. I've had people knock on my door offering me weed. Most of it is grown locally or in California, and it's dirt cheap.

My kids can probably get weed more easily than alcohol. They get mimosas on major holidays but it's just not that available to them. Well, unless they steal my wine, but since I haven't been drinking much lately, and not at home at all, there isn't any for them to steal. I bet, though, that within a year or two the older ones will know someone who's dealing pot. So, my job as a parent is to provide them with information, productive hobbies and activities, an education, and emotional support in the hopes that when they decide to experiment with drugs and alcohol, they do it in a way that is safe, limited, and not detrimental to their overall development. For instance, my line on pot is that it's not bad in and of itself, but people often overuse it and that interferes with their lives and doing things they want to do. My line on meth, however, is that it is poison and will ruin your life, or at the very least your personality.

I am betting that in ten years, my kids will have tried alcohol and pot, but not meth, cocaine, or anything that goes in a needle. I am betting none of them will be addicts, or use any drugs to a detrimental degree.

Get back to me in ten years, and we'll see if my methods were effective.

[East Coast Hustle]

I don't believe it should be determined by comparison to other drugs, but that it should be determined on its own merits.  Marijuana use does contribute to behavioral issues and can contribute to deaths as is indicated in statistics I posted earlier in the thread.  That some can use it safely, alone, IMO, does not give justification for legalization.  Much that some can use an automatic weapons safely, for recreational use, can justify legalizing the sale and ownership of such weapons.  (And no, I'm obviously aware of the differences in lethality of the two, but it is an appropriate analogy if we are looking at it through the personal freedom lens.)

I think it should be totally legal to sell and own fully automatic weapons. This is, however, a whole different issue that I don't think really has much correlation with the current discussion.

[East Coast Hustle]

I think Nigel nailed the major point to be made in regards to the arguments for and against total legalization:

It should not be the government's job to tell me what I can or can't do to my own body, and it should not be the government's job to restrict MY rights (pursuit of happiness IS still in there somewhere, yes?) based on the notion that me indulging in my rights might make it slightly more likely that children whose parents are ineffective at THEIR job might experiment with drugs at an age that can have long-term consequences.

Fuck, if the parents are so fucking numb-headed that they can't even keep their kids from ruining their lives WITH POT, then maybe it's just as well we let those kids do all the dumb shit they want and get those genes out of the pool sooner rather than later.

[Placid Dingo]

I don't believe it should be determined by comparison to other drugs, but that it should be determined on its own merits.  Marijuana use does contribute to behavioral issues and can contribute to deaths as is indicated in statistics I posted earlier in the thread.  That some can use it safely, alone, IMO, does not give justification for legalization.  Much that some can use an automatic weapons safely, for recreational use, can justify legalizing the sale and ownership of such weapons.  (And no, I'm obviously aware of the differences in lethality of the two, but it is an appropriate analogy if we are looking at it through the personal freedom lens.)

The reason I think it should be compared to other drugs is that people tend to have a certain amount of time and money to devote to recreational drug use. Some people have a certain favorite, they're going to do that drug and not any other.  Most people though, especcially light drug users are going to use what is cheap and easily available.  Currently that's alcohol.

On a point by point comparison weed is less harmful to the user and less dangerous to the surrounding community than alcohol.  If it were equally expensive and equally available to alcohol it would steal some market share from alcohol and that would be a good thing.

What you say has some validity, from an adult perspective.  Youth have entirely different motivations when it comes to drug use.  What you are talking about is almost a drug connoisseur.  Kids aren't thinking like that, they just want to put into their body whatever will push the magic buttons in their head that will make them feel different and/or forget about the world of shit they live in.

My pharmacist friend backs this up; many people coming in with addiction issues get off and move straight onto some kind of medical drug that they've been trying to self medicate for.