REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[AFK]

So doesn't this run counter to the argument that has been given by some in this thread and others that the allure of marijuana is because it is illegal?  If that is the case then why does this "legal" version of marijuana, the Spice and K2 products, why is it alluring youth? 

Umm, because they already smoke pot but they can't but pot at 7-11?

No, because it's a shiny new drug for kids to try out.  And then it spreads through social networks. 

Kids can't legally enter smoke shops, so they're unlikely to even know about the stuff unless they already smoke weed. In Maine, Spice is (or was, I think it's been banned now?) only sold at head shops. You can't just go get it at CVS.

Please, this stuff spreads through social networks as I said.  Remember the stories about Jenkem, the tampon margarita, do you think all of the kids across the country that tried those all managed to figure it out on their own?  No.  It spread through social networks.  Trust me, kids that are actively seeking and experimenting with drugs are very good at being up to date on these sorts of things. 

[Lord Cataplanga]

Waittagoddamn minute....


RWHN, are you REALLY saying that you think it's fair or right that a kid with a pot conviction can never get any federal aid for higher education for the rest of their life?

How the fuck is that being pro-children?

No, I didn't say that.  I would hope that there could be some leniency, especially if it is just one incident that didn't involve violence or trafficking.  But at some point we have to take some responsibility for our actions. 

I thought the no-pot-even-for-adults law were supposed to protect the kids so that the abuse of drugs doesn't ruin their lives by, say, depriving them of a good education? Like I mean that was the point? I think?

Perhaps you have lost sight of your terminal values?

[AFK]

• Fabricate absurdly naive narratives about cartels

Such as?  [citation needed]

Such as, "[...] I think the other thing [cartels] certainly would do is develop stronger product than what the government allows.  Now, yes, this is more often than not going to be going to your hardcore MJ users.  But that, along with the illegal Rx trade and other illicit substances, I think, would be more than enough to keep them afloat.''

OMG, TEH SUPERWEEDS!

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-06-gm-marijuana-problem-colombia.html

One greenhouse owner said she can sell the modified marijuana for 100,000 pesos ($54) per kilo (2.2 pounds), which is nearly 10 times more than the price she can get for ordinary marijuana.

Local authorities said the arrival of genetically modified seeds, which are imported from Europe and the United States have allowed "a bigger production and better quality at the same time".

A police commander in the Cauca region where Cali is located, Carlos Rodriguez, said one of the modified varieties goes by the name, "Creepy".

Another seed modified in The Netherlands is fetching a good price in the area, said a foreign researcher, who asked to remain anonymous. That version, well-known in Europe as "La Cominera", is named for the Colombian village where it grows.

"La Cominera's" higher value is due to its increased concentration of THC, the plant's principal active ingredient, and the modified plant verges on an 18 percent concentration level, compared to a normal marijuana plant's two to seven percent, said the researcher.

Despite the fact that marijuana production is illegal in Colombia, farmers say they continue to sell both traditional and modified marijuana because of economic advantages. One resident who spoke on the condition of anonymity said he can sell 11 kilograms of marijuana for 160,000 Colombian pesos ($87).

In the greenhouses outside of Cali, in a secret location accessible only by foot, it is easy to recognize the famous plant with star-shaped leaves, where it grows amid other legal crops.

"I don't like growing marijuana, but it ended up that way," one farmer said. "I received a loan to grow coffee, but I was drowning and I had to sell my harvest very cheap. My sister told me it would be better to plant marijuana."

Marijuana was first introduced to the country in the 1930s and residents of Cali said that for economic reasons, they have never stopped cultivating the plant since.

Yeah.  It is completely far-fetched that marijuana would be altered to create a more potent product to compete with a legal, federally regulated product.  Yep. 

[East Coast Hustle]

I'd also like to go back to the part where you raise the (admittedly valid) point that many peoples' arguments ITT are based upon a presumption of rational action on the part of marijuana users and/or parents.

Funny, then, that most of your arguments as to why prohibition is a fair, just, and effective policy in the context of marijuana law depend upon a presumption of not only rational but compassionate action on the parts of the government and law enforcement communities.

Because, you know, they're known and noted for that sort of thing.

They are in my community. 

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you lived in Maine.

[East Coast Hustle]

Waittagoddamn minute....


RWHN, are you REALLY saying that you think it's fair or right that a kid with a pot conviction can never get any federal aid for higher education for the rest of their life?

How the fuck is that being pro-children?

No, I didn't say that.  I would hope that there could be some leniency, especially if it is just one incident that didn't involve violence or trafficking.  But at some point we have to take some responsibility for our actions. 

What if at some point we decide we want to stop being involved in that world and better our lives but we can't because the fucking feds won't give us a fucking cent for college because of a fucking posession charge?

You think that you personally HOPING for some leniency is a valid response to the question?

[East Coast Hustle]

• Fabricate absurdly naive narratives about cartels

Such as?  [citation needed]

Such as, "[...] I think the other thing [cartels] certainly would do is develop stronger product than what the government allows.  Now, yes, this is more often than not going to be going to your hardcore MJ users.  But that, along with the illegal Rx trade and other illicit substances, I think, would be more than enough to keep them afloat.''

OMG, TEH SUPERWEEDS!

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-06-gm-marijuana-problem-colombia.html

One greenhouse owner said she can sell the modified marijuana for 100,000 pesos ($54) per kilo (2.2 pounds), which is nearly 10 times more than the price she can get for ordinary marijuana.

Local authorities said the arrival of genetically modified seeds, which are imported from Europe and the United States have allowed "a bigger production and better quality at the same time".

A police commander in the Cauca region where Cali is located, Carlos Rodriguez, said one of the modified varieties goes by the name, "Creepy".

Another seed modified in The Netherlands is fetching a good price in the area, said a foreign researcher, who asked to remain anonymous. That version, well-known in Europe as "La Cominera", is named for the Colombian village where it grows.

"La Cominera's" higher value is due to its increased concentration of THC, the plant's principal active ingredient, and the modified plant verges on an 18 percent concentration level, compared to a normal marijuana plant's two to seven percent, said the researcher.

Despite the fact that marijuana production is illegal in Colombia, farmers say they continue to sell both traditional and modified marijuana because of economic advantages. One resident who spoke on the condition of anonymity said he can sell 11 kilograms of marijuana for 160,000 Colombian pesos ($87).

In the greenhouses outside of Cali, in a secret location accessible only by foot, it is easy to recognize the famous plant with star-shaped leaves, where it grows amid other legal crops.

"I don't like growing marijuana, but it ended up that way," one farmer said. "I received a loan to grow coffee, but I was drowning and I had to sell my harvest very cheap. My sister told me it would be better to plant marijuana."

Marijuana was first introduced to the country in the 1930s and residents of Cali said that for economic reasons, they have never stopped cultivating the plant since.

Yeah.  It is completely far-fetched that marijuana would be altered to create a more potent product to compete with a legal, federally regulated product.  Yep. 

See, this is where your rejection of other peoples' vast experience does you a disservice.

What that article refers to as "genetically-modified pot" is just higher-potency strains created by good breeding. SO basically the article is saying that people can sell good pot for more than they can sell crappy pot. Wow, that's a shocking revelation.

And by the way, that super-potent 18% THC weed they're growing down there? It still wouldn't be able to compete with the good hydroponically-grown weed here in the PNW, the best strains of which top out at around 25%.

[AFK]

I'd also like to go back to the part where you raise the (admittedly valid) point that many peoples' arguments ITT are based upon a presumption of rational action on the part of marijuana users and/or parents.

Funny, then, that most of your arguments as to why prohibition is a fair, just, and effective policy in the context of marijuana law depend upon a presumption of not only rational but compassionate action on the parts of the government and law enforcement communities.

Because, you know, they're known and noted for that sort of thing.

They are in my community. 

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you lived in Maine.

I do.  And we have two police departments here that are very involved in the community and do quite a bit to help out the youth in the community.  Of course, you know, I'm on the ground here with the experience of being a member of this community, something you don't have, but I'm sure the information you get second hand from people you know who live in this area is just as good. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It seems like super-potent weed would be really useful in the medical trade, enabling two to three times the therapeutic dose to be grown in the same space.

That aside, I am finding it extremely suspect that other than that widely-reprinted single article on GM marijuana in Columbia and a few posts on drug forums, there seems to be no evidence that it exists outside of Monsanto's terminator cannabis. I also thought it was interesting that the article cited THC content "up to 18%", when 18% is pretty common in strains grown for medical use and it's been documented since the 1970's that certain hybrid Indica strains can produce up to 28% (look up "G-13 strain). Yes, hybridization is a form of genetic modification, but that's not typically what is meant by "GM". How the plants are grown has the most impact on THC content, so the fact that there were in greenhouses and not in a clearing in the forest is probably more responsible for the higher THC content than anything else.

So, as far as I can tell, that article is yet another case of media sensationalism.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'd also like to go back to the part where you raise the (admittedly valid) point that many peoples' arguments ITT are based upon a presumption of rational action on the part of marijuana users and/or parents.

Funny, then, that most of your arguments as to why prohibition is a fair, just, and effective policy in the context of marijuana law depend upon a presumption of not only rational but compassionate action on the parts of the government and law enforcement communities.

Because, you know, they're known and noted for that sort of thing.

They are in my community. 

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you lived in Maine.

I do.  And we have two police departments here that are very involved in the community and do quite a bit to help out the youth in the community.  Of course, you know, I'm on the ground here with the experience of being a member of this community, something you don't have, but I'm sure the information you get second hand from people you know who live in this area is just as good. 

Didn't ECH just move here from Maine last year?

[AFK]

Waittagoddamn minute....


RWHN, are you REALLY saying that you think it's fair or right that a kid with a pot conviction can never get any federal aid for higher education for the rest of their life?

How the fuck is that being pro-children?

No, I didn't say that.  I would hope that there could be some leniency, especially if it is just one incident that didn't involve violence or trafficking.  But at some point we have to take some responsibility for our actions. 

What if at some point we decide we want to stop being involved in that world and better our lives but we can't because the fucking feds won't give us a fucking cent for college because of a fucking posession charge?

You think that you personally HOPING for some leniency is a valid response to the question?

Well considering I have approximately zero input and influence in that area, it is the best I can do.  I don't work on federal policies, I work on state and local policies.  But sure, if I had the opportunity to speak or give my two cents on some kind of panel or study, or whatever regarding this I certainly would advocate that kids get second chances to have access to that funding.  Of course, I don't see that happening without some strings attached, such as some kind of reporting that verifies the kid is staying clean.  Especially if it is a situation where there is a lot of competition for those funds.  

However, at the same time, it would be important to educate kids, as we do, what ALL of the consequences of using and selling drugs are, including the impacts upon their future.  And this is actually something we do.  Reality is reality whether I agree with it 100% or not.  As successful as I've been in local settings, I obviously can't move mountains and I don't have any kind of sway at that level.  So, in the meantime, kids need to know the lay of the land and understand the consequences of the decisions they make today.  

[AFK]

I'd also like to go back to the part where you raise the (admittedly valid) point that many peoples' arguments ITT are based upon a presumption of rational action on the part of marijuana users and/or parents.

Funny, then, that most of your arguments as to why prohibition is a fair, just, and effective policy in the context of marijuana law depend upon a presumption of not only rational but compassionate action on the parts of the government and law enforcement communities.

Because, you know, they're known and noted for that sort of thing.

They are in my community. 

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you lived in Maine.

I do.  And we have two police departments here that are very involved in the community and do quite a bit to help out the youth in the community.  Of course, you know, I'm on the ground here with the experience of being a member of this community, something you don't have, but I'm sure the information you get second hand from people you know who live in this area is just as good. 

Didn't ECH just move here from Maine last year?

Maine's a pretty big state and ECH doesn't live where I work.  So I think it is safe to say I have slightly more working knowledge of the local police departments here than he does.  Call me crazy. 

[AFK]

It seems like super-potent weed would be really useful in the medical trade, enabling two to three times the therapeutic dose to be grown in the same space.

That aside, I am finding it extremely suspect that other than that widely-reprinted single article on GM marijuana in Columbia and a few posts on drug forums, there seems to be no evidence that it exists outside of Monsanto's terminator cannabis. I also thought it was interesting that the article cited THC content "up to 18%", when 18% is pretty common in strains grown for medical use and it's been documented since the 1970's that certain hybrid Indica strains can produce up to 28% (look up "G-13 strain). Yes, hybridization is a form of genetic modification, but that's not typically what is meant by "GM". How the plants are grown has the most impact on THC content, so the fact that there were in greenhouses and not in a clearing in the forest is probably more responsible for the higher THC content than anything else.

So, as far as I can tell, that article is yet another case of media sensationalism.

Yes and it is being used in the medical setting.  The only point I'm making is that it is demonstrably possible to create a more potent product compared to other products.  If the market was right, and if the costs weren't prohibitively high, it is a reasonable conclusion to draw that a criminal operation could seek to create and cultivate a strain of the drug that would be more potent compared to a legal, federally regulated version.  Please note the "ifs" in my statement.  If the costs were too high to develop that product, it obviously won't happen. 

And as the prescription drug market becomes more lucrative to them, perhaps they won't even consider it and just work on growing that part of their operations.  But it definitely is a possibility if the environment is right. 

[Doktor Howl]

It seems like super-potent weed would be really useful in the medical trade, enabling two to three times the therapeutic dose to be grown in the same space.

That aside, I am finding it extremely suspect that other than that widely-reprinted single article on GM marijuana in Columbia and a few posts on drug forums, there seems to be no evidence that it exists outside of Monsanto's terminator cannabis. I also thought it was interesting that the article cited THC content "up to 18%", when 18% is pretty common in strains grown for medical use and it's been documented since the 1970's that certain hybrid Indica strains can produce up to 28% (look up "G-13 strain). Yes, hybridization is a form of genetic modification, but that's not typically what is meant by "GM". How the plants are grown has the most impact on THC content, so the fact that there were in greenhouses and not in a clearing in the forest is probably more responsible for the higher THC content than anything else.

So, as far as I can tell, that article is yet another case of media sensationalism.

Yes and it is being used in the medical setting.  The only point I'm making is that it is demonstrably possible to create a more potent product compared to other products.  If the market was right, and if the costs weren't prohibitively high, it is a reasonable conclusion to draw that a criminal operation could seek to create and cultivate a strain of the drug that would be more potent compared to a legal, federally regulated version.  Please note the "ifs" in my statement.  If the costs were too high to develop that product, it obviously won't happen. 

And as the prescription drug market becomes more lucrative to them, perhaps they won't even consider it and just work on growing that part of their operations.  But it definitely is a possibility if the environment is right. 

Why on Earth should the potency be regulated?  IIRC, they can't even quantify it.

[AFK]

Maybe I'm wrong and they wouldn't regulate it.  I just can't see it being legalized without some kind of regulation or oversight from the FDA which would very likely include some kind of rules as to its composition/potency. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'd also like to go back to the part where you raise the (admittedly valid) point that many peoples' arguments ITT are based upon a presumption of rational action on the part of marijuana users and/or parents.

Funny, then, that most of your arguments as to why prohibition is a fair, just, and effective policy in the context of marijuana law depend upon a presumption of not only rational but compassionate action on the parts of the government and law enforcement communities.

Because, you know, they're known and noted for that sort of thing.

They are in my community. 

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you lived in Maine.

I do.  And we have two police departments here that are very involved in the community and do quite a bit to help out the youth in the community.  Of course, you know, I'm on the ground here with the experience of being a member of this community, something you don't have, but I'm sure the information you get second hand from people you know who live in this area is just as good. 

Didn't ECH just move here from Maine last year?

Maine's a pretty big state and ECH doesn't live where I work.  So I think it is safe to say I have slightly more working knowledge of the local police departments here than he does.  Call me crazy. 

Big compared to what? Rhode Island? Isn't Maine about the size of Multnomah County?  He mentioned compassion on the part of government... does your town have different sentencing laws from the rest of Maine?