REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[AFK]

I believe that we will find out that the benefits to society (and especially to children) of legalizing marijuana will far outweigh the alleged benefits of criminalizing it.

Go, Washington State, go!

Yup. I understand RWHN's position but I just haven't seen any evidence that legalization will lead to a large enough increase in use to outweigh the hundreds of thousands of lives that WONT be ruined and the billions of dollars that WONT be wasted on corrupt and ineffective law enforcement.

Consider this.  The adolescent population in the United States is 40 Million.  Let's say there is just a 1% increase in adolescents who become regular users of marijuana after it is legalized.  That would be 400,000 kids.  You were saying about hundreds of thousands of lives being ruined? 

Even if I accept that 400,000 additional children would immediately start smoking pot if it were legalized, how is that going to ruin ALL of their lives? Especially if they don't have to worry about getting a criminal record and being denied financial aid for college?

but even if all 400,000 kids are ruined forever, that's still substantially less than the amount of people currently in prison on marijuana-related charges (and ONLY marijuana-related charges). And still substantially less than the 300,000,000+ Americans that would benefit greatly from the federal government NOT spending all that money on failed policies and corrupt enforcement officials.

Could you provide a link that verifies the number of people in prison for marijuana-only charges that exceeds 400,000? 

[Don Coyote]

I believe that we will find out that the benefits to society (and especially to children) of legalizing marijuana will far outweigh the alleged benefits of criminalizing it.

Go, Washington State, go!

Yup. I understand RWHN's position but I just haven't seen any evidence that legalization will lead to a large enough increase in use to outweigh the hundreds of thousands of lives that WONT be ruined and the billions of dollars that WONT be wasted on corrupt and ineffective law enforcement.

Consider this.  The adolescent population in the United States is 40 Million.  Let's say there is just a 1% increase in adolescents who become regular users of marijuana after it is legalized.  That would be 400,000 kids.  You were saying about hundreds of thousands of lives being ruined? 

As opposed to the nearly twice that number of people who are imprisoned on marijuana charges each year?

Hm. Gotta think about that. OH WAIT

THIS, and, regular user of marijuana does not equal life is ruined.  400,000 kids, of which I wouldn't believe 50,000 would have their life ruined.  Especially since it's no longer illegal, and they wont be arrested and go to jail or lose out on Financial Aid.

Yes, because if they legalize marijuana they are going to also make it legal for kids to use just like they did for alcohol and tobacco....oh, wait, no, those were still illegal for minors to use. 

Forgive me if I blank out, but aren't the penalties for minors using alcohol and tobacco much less than for using marijuana currently?

[AFK]

Yes, but the argument that is being put forth is about how marijuana penalties/convictions ruin kids lives forever.  So whether or not you legalize it, it will still be illegal for minors which means they can still have marijuana charges against them, which means nothing will change in that department. 

I will say, for the record, I'm suspect as to the actual extent of kids lives being ruined forever after a non-violent pot conviction.  If a kid is dealing it, or knocked someone off in a deal, or something like that, yeah, that definitely will make things rough for the kid.  But I am suspect that a kid being arrested for simple possession or similar small-time charge actually ruins their life forever.  If someone can provide data that demonstrates the extent to which this happens, I may be persuaded. 

I mean, I can use anecdotes and tell you about kids I've known that went through my former agency's residential program (many of whom, if not all, got in trouble with the law) and many of them found a way to go to college.  Sure, maybe it was community college vs. some big fancy ivy league school, but fuck, there are straight and sober kids who have to settle for that. 

[AFK]

For anyone who is interested, Columbia University just released a report outlining the extent of the current adolescent substance abuse issues in our country.  It really is one of our top public health concerns today.  The report is pretty big, 419 pages, but they also have a slide show of about 20 slides that highlights some of the key data points.  You can access it here:  http://www.casacolumbia.org/templates/NewsRoom.aspx?articleid=631&zoneid=51&utm_medium=email&utm_source=peer360&utm_campaign=COMHSreportdissemination&utm_content=HDCASANews

Just putting it out there for your information. 

[East Coast Hustle]

I believe that we will find out that the benefits to society (and especially to children) of legalizing marijuana will far outweigh the alleged benefits of criminalizing it.

Go, Washington State, go!

Yup. I understand RWHN's position but I just haven't seen any evidence that legalization will lead to a large enough increase in use to outweigh the hundreds of thousands of lives that WONT be ruined and the billions of dollars that WONT be wasted on corrupt and ineffective law enforcement.

Consider this.  The adolescent population in the United States is 40 Million.  Let's say there is just a 1% increase in adolescents who become regular users of marijuana after it is legalized.  That would be 400,000 kids.  You were saying about hundreds of thousands of lives being ruined? 

As opposed to the nearly twice that number of people who are imprisoned on marijuana charges each year?

Hm. Gotta think about that. OH WAIT

THIS, and, regular user of marijuana does not equal life is ruined.  400,000 kids, of which I wouldn't believe 50,000 would have their life ruined.  Especially since it's no longer illegal, and they wont be arrested and go to jail or lose out on Financial Aid.

Yes, because if they legalize marijuana they are going to also make it legal for kids to use just like they did for alcohol and tobacco....oh, wait, no, those were still illegal for minors to use. 

When minors get caught drinking they generally don't go to jail, get stuck with a criminal record, and get barred for life from receiving financial aid.

You keep making these completely useless (and frankly, terrible) analogies. It makes it hard to believe you're really thinking about this from a standpoint of rational open-mindedness.

[East Coast Hustle]

Yes, but the argument that is being put forth is about how marijuana penalties/convictions ruin kids lives forever.  So whether or not you legalize it, it will still be illegal for minors which means they can still have marijuana charges against them, which means nothing will change in that department.  

I will say, for the record, I'm suspect as to the actual extent of kids lives being ruined forever after a non-violent pot conviction.  If a kid is dealing it, or knocked someone off in a deal, or something like that, yeah, that definitely will make things rough for the kid.  But I am suspect that a kid being arrested for simple possession or similar small-time charge actually ruins their life forever.  If someone can provide data that demonstrates the extent to which this happens, I may be persuaded.  

I mean, I can use anecdotes and tell you about kids I've known that went through my former agency's residential program (many of whom, if not all, got in trouble with the law) and many of them found a way to go to college.  Sure, maybe it was community college vs. some big fancy ivy league school, but fuck, there are straight and sober kids who have to settle for that.  

HI. I HAVE A SIMPLE POSSESSION CHARGE ON MY RECORD AND CAN NEVER GET FINANCIAL AID OR A GOVERNMENT SECURITY CLEARANCE (WHICH MEANS THAT IN THEORY AT SOME POINT I COULD BE UNABLE TO DO MY CURRENT JOB) OR EVEN A REGULAR WHITE-COLLAR JOB.

Now, my life is far from ruined but goddamn, I'd sure like to be able to go back to school and not have to still be busting my balls over a hot stove when I'm 50.

I hope you can accept my anecdotal evidence without a published study to back it up concerning the effects on my life of the aroementioned pot charge.

[AFK]

When minors get caught drinking they generally don't go to jail, get stuck with a criminal record, and get barred for life from receiving financial aid.

You keep making these completely useless (and frankly, terrible) analogies. It makes it hard to believe you're really thinking about this from a standpoint of rational open-mindedness.

I wasn't making an analogy.  I was simply reminding trix, in a obviously sarcastic manner, that legalizing marijuana would only be for adults.  Therefore, there still would be charges a minor could face associated with possessing and distributing marijuana to others.  Undoubtedly charges that would go on a criminal record.  Basically, I'm just pointing out that of all the points that can be made to justify marijuana legalization, the one that trix gave doesn't hold up. 

I would further add that any kind of legislation that ever legalizes, or decriminalizes, marijuana is going to come with some other adjustments in law enforcement.  Because any legislation that passes to legalize marijuana is going to have to be a compromise between the two sides.  I would fully expect, and hope, that this compromise would include some very hefty charges for dealing or distributing to minors, as well as some very hefty charges for anyone who knowingly or willingly hosts a party where minors are present and where marijuana is being distributed.  I mean, there's no way that doesn't happen.  Those laws will invariably ensnare some young adults and very likely make their futures a bit more difficult. 

Granted, this is a hypothetical but I really don't see how marijuana is legalized without these kind of adjustments.  While public sentiment may be moving towards decriminalization and legalization, it hasn't moved that much. 

[AFK]

Yes, but the argument that is being put forth is about how marijuana penalties/convictions ruin kids lives forever.  So whether or not you legalize it, it will still be illegal for minors which means they can still have marijuana charges against them, which means nothing will change in that department.  

I will say, for the record, I'm suspect as to the actual extent of kids lives being ruined forever after a non-violent pot conviction.  If a kid is dealing it, or knocked someone off in a deal, or something like that, yeah, that definitely will make things rough for the kid.  But I am suspect that a kid being arrested for simple possession or similar small-time charge actually ruins their life forever.  If someone can provide data that demonstrates the extent to which this happens, I may be persuaded.  

I mean, I can use anecdotes and tell you about kids I've known that went through my former agency's residential program (many of whom, if not all, got in trouble with the law) and many of them found a way to go to college.  Sure, maybe it was community college vs. some big fancy ivy league school, but fuck, there are straight and sober kids who have to settle for that.  

HI. I HAVE A SIMPLE POSSESSION CHARGE ON MY RECORD AND CAN NEVER GET FINANCIAL AID OR A GOVERNMENT SECURITY CLEARANCE (WHICH MEANS THAT IN THEORY AT SOME POINT I COULD BE UNABLE TO DO MY CURRENT JOB) OR EVEN A REGULAR WHITE-COLLAR JOB.

Now, my life is far from ruined but goddamn, I'd sure like to be able to go back to school and not have to still be busting my balls over a hot stove when I'm 50.

I hope you can accept my anecdotal evidence without a published study to back it up concerning the effects on my life of the aroementioned pot charge.

I'm not arguing it doesn't happen, I'm asking about the extent to which it happens.  And I don't justify it at all.  If it is indeed that pervasive that non-violent, low level offenders are unable to go to college after paying their debts to society then that is obviously an area of policy that needs to be addressed.  If there isn't some kind of appeals process or "parole" process, if you will, there should be one. 

[Kai]

This thread is full of poor communication and backfire effect. Any evidence provided here will only make each person's original beliefs stronger. http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/ Which incidentally, is why every single one of these threads goes this direction.

[Cramulus]

Actually, one of these threads was pretty formative in my opinions on drug law. People who have their mind made up probably won't be swayed. But RWHN's arguments definitely helped me better understand the current laws and helped me realize how reckless the "legalize everything" point of view is.

[Kai]

Actually, one of these threads was pretty formative in my opinions on drug law. People who have their mind made up probably won't be swayed. But RWHN's arguments definitely helped me better understand the current laws and helped me realize how reckless the "legalize everything" point of view is.

If you didn't have a strong opinion in the first place, then yeah, backfire effect doesn't apply. However, this forum is filled with strong opinions.

[Elder Iptuous]

I have strong opinions of the matter, and although i can't say i have fundamentally changed them, they have certainly been tempered by RWHN's arguments and info links...

I think the denizens of this forum have a better than average tendency to examine their own entrenched beliefs.
i know it's been a good influence on me.
Roger has certainly had me stare down some sacred cows, and i've changed my mind on some topics there, to my benefit.

[AFK]

My opinions are bold, not strong.

Opinions

See?

[Kai]

My opinions are bold, not strong.

Opinions

See?

Heh. You certainly do have opinions built in experience. But I wonder, how much of your map (or anyone in this thread) actually matches the territory? You see things that others don't, being in your position, but how much of what you read from the ivory tower of academia (being in academia currently, I can say this) is colored by cognitive bias?

Because when I read these discussions, I become confused. I become confused, because I'm having trouble fitting map to territory, distinguishing reality from fiction. Here we have educated people on all sides attacking this problem of Cannabis from different directions, with different reasons for being interested in the problem, and those interests are going to color whatever evidence they choose to exhibit. Your interest is in the well being of young adults and children, and therefore, whatever evidence you present will be aimed at that element. Lots of little pictures from lots of different people.

And of course, there are big answers and solutions. Humans are not that disparate in psychology and physiology that there would not be. So, either what everyone here is saying is true, or some of it is false, or all of it is false (doubtful). And the solution may be one of these, or a partial synthesis of these, or none of these, but THIS is clear. Somebody's conclusion is wrong, somebody's answers and solutions are wrong. If there are right solutions, that means there are wrong solutions as well. If there are good answers, then there are bad answers.

Which ones are good or bad? I certainly can't tell fuck all from this thread. And I doubt anyone else without a bold opinion can tell either.

And I certainly don't fault you for defending yourself and your work, RWHN. I just think this thread is otherwise useless.

[AFK]

Well, I wouldn't really say I'm in this thread to defend myself or my work.  I'm honestly just here to discuss/debate the issue with people who are on the other side.  Also (at the risk of sounding pretentious) I'm here to present a side I don't think would otherwise be presented.  I mean, let's face it, if I weren't in this thread, it would be pretty one sided, right?  And, this being a Discordian board and all, it seems important to recognize that there are different reality grids when it comes to this particular topic. 

And so in that respect I wouldn't say that these threads are useless.

Are they going to solve the issue or resolve the disagreements?  Of course not.  If a message board ever does that I'm going to become very worried and paranoid. 

As I've said, I have no delusions that I'm going to change anyone's mind.  And I expect ECH and Rat (even though he's not here for this round) also have no delusions that they are going to sway my mind.  I think it is good for each of us to be exposed to different trains of thought and different sources on this topic.  I feel pretty safe in assuming not a lot of people on the other side of the debate have had a lot of exposure to the risk and protective research.  I think it's a good thing for them to check out and to consider. 

But, in the end, yes, we are just going to come basically to the same positions of agreeing to disagree.

But of course I'm right.