BREAKING NEWS: HUNS INVADE EUROPE. VISIGOTHS SACK ROME...

[Suu]

VANDALS RIP ACROSS EUROPE...TAKE A LOT OF GAUL!



NEWS AT 11!

[Phox]

VANDALS RIP ACROSS EUROPE...TAKE A LOT OF GAUL!



NEWS AT 11!

[Suu]

CAME FROM THE NORTH SEA
I WANT YOU TO KNOW
SLICING UP ROMANS
I WANT YOU TO KNOW
GAUL YOU'RE SO GROOVY
I WANT YOU TO KNOW
DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU
BUT I AM AT THEN VANDALUSIA
I AM AT THEN VANDALUSIA
I AM AT THEN VANDALUSIA
I AM AT THEN VANDALUSIA
WANNA GROW
UP TO BE
BE A DEBASER

[Nephew Twiddleton]

In other news, Welshman successfully fend off the Saxons by pointing out that they are about to invade Wales.

Saxons grateful.

[Suu]

Saxons ain't shit compared to the earlier mainland tribes.



...As you can guess, tonight's lecture was about Federati Agreements and techniques of accommodation between Rome and the tribes.

Such as...





And



No wait...that's not right...

[Suu]

CAME FROM THE NORTH SEA
I WANT YOU TO KNOW
SLICING UP ROMANS
I WANT YOU TO KNOW
GAUL YOU'RE SO GROOVY
I WANT YOU TO KNOW
DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU
BUT I AM AT THEN VANDALUSIA
I AM AT THEN VANDALUSIA
I AM AT THEN VANDALUSIA
I AM AT THEN VANDALUSIA
WANNA GROW
UP TO BE
BE A DEBASER

Bump for my ego.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Saxons ain't shit compared to the earlier mainland tribes.

True, but bear in mind that they were going up against British Celts used to having the Romans protect them.

[Suu]

Saxons ain't shit compared to the earlier mainland tribes.

True, but bear in mind that they were going up against British Celts used to having the Romans protect them.

Which British Celts? Everyone who wasn't Roman was essentially a Celt or Gaul or "Barbarian". The Britons, Picts, Caledonians...We hit on it last night in class (and I've heard both Richter and General Stuart scream about it on multiple occasions), you gotta use the word "Celt" sparingly unless you definitely don't know the name of the tribe, in that case, you can say Irish Celt (Hibernians), Scottish Celt (Caledonians), or Danish Celt (Jutes) etc...The Vikings were Celts, the Goths were Celts... The only tribe that was not "Celtic" in origin, were the Huns, as they were from the Far East.

The first Celtic culture is said to have started in the Hallstatt region of Germany in 800BC, and from there they spread out and formed the Germanic cultures that spread into Iberia, Africa, and even as far East as Armenia. Ever heard of Galicia? Galipoli? Galatia? The Romans weren't very inventive with names...Gaul were mainland "Celts".

The reason why we use Celtic to pinpoint the insular tribes of Britain and Hibernia is because they were able to be Romanized the least, and maintained certain aspects of their culture such as Gaelic (There's that Gaul word again...) language.

And all that pretty knotwork stuff? That's actually primarily Roman and Islamic in origin. The tribes were so nomadic that they brought the technique everywhere, and it's just mostly popularized as being from Ireland and Scotland.


-Suu
Ruining romanticized history again. Now THERE'S a word, ROMANTIC.


...I go back to work now.

[Cain]

Huns were pretty cool, but I always preferred the Avars.  If a theory that was developed in the late 1980s is correct, they represented the first invasion of Europe at the hands of the Mongolians (well, their core leadership, at least).

[Suu]

I thought the Avars were more Turkic, like the Magyars.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I would disagree with your inclusion of Jutes and Vikings as Celts. Not all European Barbarians were Celtic.

To be considered a Celt, a particular tribe must:
Adhere to Celtic polytheism
Speak a Celtic language
Identify with Celtic culture

Vikings would not be Celts because they worshipped the Aesir and spoke a Nordic language. I can't speak to the similarities of Celtic and Norse culture. Note also that Caesar clearly differentiates between Celts (so called in their language, and "in ours, Gauls"), Belgae and Aquitani from Germanic tribes)
The Basque would not be Celts because they don't meet any of the criteria (even though Gaels are Celticized Basque)
Picts are debatable. We can't really tell what their language was like.

Anyway, I said British Celts which does specify a particular group of Celts, whose decendants include the Welsh and the Cornish.
Scots would not be considered British Celts, since they are Gaels.

British Celts spoke a P-Celtic languages
Gaels spoke Q-Celtic languages

Both have distinct origins, but became Celticized.

Modern Irish and Scottish people would not be Celts, since they generally only meet 2 criteria at best, unless they're Celtic Reconstructionists.

Also well aware of Galatians, Halstatt, etc, as well as the non Celtic origin of knotwork. True Celtic designs generally involved spirals.

[Cain]

I thought the Avars were more Turkic, like the Magyars.

Yes, for the most part.  No steppe people were ever really ethnically homogenous, but their origins are believed to be Turkic.  However there was something about Mongol skulls being found in Avar graves.  Also the Rouran Mongols supposedly conquered the Avars maybe a century and a half before their migration westwards, which lends some weight to the hypothesis that their ruling clans had Mongol origins.

[Phox]

To be considered a Celt, a particular tribe must:
Adhere to Celtic polytheism
Speak a Celtic language
Identify with Celtic culture

Question, where do your criteria come from?

Linguistically, Gauls and Iberians, as well as the natives of the British Isles, were Celtic. Aside from that, I can't accurately comment on how widespread the Celtic language was.

As religion goes, I disagree that it should be a criteria. There were Romans who adhered to religions other than "Roman polytheism", would they qualify as being Romans, culturally and ethnically, then? Your logic seems to suggest otherwise.

In terms of culture, I'm not as sure what you are saying. Take a Jew, living in Judaea. If our Jew identifies him or herself as a Jew, practices Judaism, but participates in Roman cultural practices, would our Jew be a Jew still? Is the self-identity or the relevant cultural identity more important? Or are they of equal importance?

[Suu]

Which Caesar? I'm assuming you mean Julius and using Caesar as a surname and not a title, so we're talking about the time of Vercingetorix, who was Arverni, a Gallic tribe in what was then known as Celtae.

By then, the Germanics were getting pretty well defined, but all tribes go back to the common ancestry of the Hallstatt Celtic Culture 8 centuries prior, EXCEPT those that were Turkic or Mongol and coming in from the East, so the linguistics would be evolving rapidly to keep up with necessary trade. That's something more up Jenne's alley though, I get the idea of linguistics, but I don't know enough to really solidify the argument, so perhaps if she checks into the thread she could have some input.

At the time the Vikings existed, the Norse culture and language was definitely defined, and that's still over a millennia from when the Hallstatt region was said to have been the predominant culture in Europe. To say that the Proto-Celtic and Celtic cultures of central Europe in that period didn't influence the other peoples that lived in the Baltic region is kind of hard to believe.

Also the spirals you speak of...ALSO used quite extensively in the Norse culture. Then again, it's a pretty easy shape to make.

I hope General Stuart/Frungle sees this thread, this discussion is RIGHT up his alley. Keep it up though, I love discussing this stuff.

[0]

YES!

Very interesting, keep it up!