Author Topic: So where did these roles come from, anyway?  (Read 8566 times)

Triple Zero

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2010, 12:18:23 am »
Trip, these roles existed, but were "unNamed" and not supported by overt rules/mechanics that cater to the roles (the porting of D&D roles to MMO allowed the MMO designers to finally Name, and clarify the roles in their own game, and yes, this has spilled back into the development of D&D4e). "Tanks" were just the player at the table who decided to "keep the caster alive", etc, etc.

Hm I think you missed what I was trying to say (3rd time the new way of quoting bugs me btw, I just need *one* extra nested quote to preserve context) ah well.

I said, yes you can probably build D&D characters to play these roles, but they are among many different kinds of roles. Usually the "tank" which is supposed to just soak up damage in MMORPGs, in tabletop, it's just the fighter that deals both damage as well as soaks it, no?

Or maybe you played D&D differently than we did? Much more combat and strategy oriented?

as I said, no doubt you can play the game that way, but you didn't have to, nor did it make the game generally or specifically more fun. Unlike MMORPGs, where (as I got the impression from my flatmate) you basically can't finish a quest/adventure/cave/dungeon/thing if you don't follow those tactics, as well as you're forced to play those tactics, because all the other players do.

Again, I have never seen these tactics employed in tabletop RPGing. Sure it could be done, but then again, you can also play a cross-dressing half-orc.

Noonan was basically wondering how we arrived at these tropes - why doesn't conan backstab people? why does the party mage always need to stand next to the tough guy?

You're now conflating two things. As was Noonan, btw. First one is, why do these tropes exist.

But your second question is about tactics in combat.

And I dunno but in tabletop RPGs, next to the tough guy is a really bad place for the party mage to be, he's usually better on the edge of the fighting circle, since most of his spells are ranged anyway. Maybe the tactic is different for MMORPGs, however. Which is my point. I don't agree about the parallels he draws.

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Why do D&D parties have healers, even though there was no healer character in Tolkein or the other "appendix N" novels?

His reasoning about the healer is spot-on, IMO. I have experienced the plot grinding to a halt with not enough healing power a couple of times myself, and yes. Either you heal shit at a fantastic rate automatically (like in the movies) or you gotta have healing spells or potions. Otherwise the plot halts and/or the party splits because one half is in the hospital.

I agree about the healers, but the stuff about the tanks and DPS (so that's a rogue?) and "controllers", well one it's heavily combat-oriented, which means it's really only about a small part of the tactics of tabletop RPGing, while it's 95% of what makes up the tactics of a MMORPG.

And I just don't agree with the reasoning, apparently healer+tank+DPS is a certain tactic people use in MMORPGs, why did that happen? Probably because the game mechanics of MMORPGs make that to be a successful tactic. Did it originate from tabletop RPGs?

Well in a sense the healer did, but he only explains why a healer needs to be part of any party, so only in the sense MMORPGs emerged from RPGs.

But if the healer+tank+DPS tactic came from table RPGing, then where is all the other stuff that is in tabletop RPGs but not in MMORPGs? Why are all the other tactics so unpopular in MMORPGs? That's the part what he's not answering, and that's the reason why I think it's a bit stretching to say this healer+tank+DPS tactic originated from tabletop RPGing.

So a tank is a character that just stands there with mega-armorclass to draw the anger of the enemy so the dps guy can finish off the enemy with as much damage per second? I have never seen this in a tabletop RPG?

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If you look at the characters in the novels that gygax and arneson read, none of them act that way in the literature... Noonan thinks that there's nothing inherent about fantasy games that produces the tank/dps/healer trinity, it's something that evolved over time. He posits that if D&D 1st edition wasn't written the way it was (ie with such a high emphasis on simulation), we wouldn't have ended up with a healer role. And if we hadn't been sending mages into dungeons with 3 hp and AC 10 (another product of simulation, not solid game design), we probably wouldn't have ended up with the "tank" role that appears in so many games today.

I agree about the healer, but the other stuff, really, seems to originate a lot more from the mechanics of MMORPGs than oldskool tabletop RPGs than the author says. Even if he playtested the games.

For instance, how's the tank help a mage with 3HP and AC10 in a dungeon? A dungeon in a tabletop RPG doesn't just have monsters but also traps and whatnot. Traps kill a mage whether there's a tank next to him or not. (Usually it's the rogue that has to scout. But not because the rogue has these DPS sneak attack abilities, no, because they can scan for traps and they have high Dex.)
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Don Coyote

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2010, 04:28:21 am »
But on the same level, it would not be excessively intelligent for some goblins or whatever to be like "Okay I want our fighters to keep their fighters busy, and our archers to go after the first guy to cast spells."

But that's not aggro, that's just elementary strategy.
I am going to assume that you aren't aware that most humanoids (goblins, orcs and their ilk) were generally just mooks, experience fodder and such. And at low levels you generally weren't going to be facing enough humanoids that they would be organized like that. Of course this is only anecdotal as I was not alive back then. I am going off of the implications I have read in my small collection of early 80's Dragon Magazine. There were also no articles discussing the best way for your paladin, barbarian or fighting man to piss of the monsters so your pointy hats could zap stuff with lightning bolt. By the point your party was advanced enough to be running into large masses of foes they had henchmen, hirelings and followers, which adds more things to shoot at.



And I think 000 hit it rather squarely. In highschool(3rd edition) we once convinced the new guy to go with this ridiculous dual wielding bastard swords fighter build. We called him our tank. Why? Because he had the highest AC and could, theoretically put out nasty damage, not because our squishies were planning on hiding behind him. Granted the entirety of that party were fighters and rogues, and it did end with most of the party committing suicide just as I was fixing on betraying them to the authorities. It wasn't even a very combat oriented game. Most of us who play heavily armored fighter types do so because armor looks cool, and so are big ass weapons.

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2010, 04:34:11 am »
I am aware that what you say is true of DnD.  I'm just saying it's silly and wrong.

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2010, 04:37:27 am »
I am aware that what you say is true of DnD.  I'm just saying it's silly and wrong.

I had a stupid. What exactly are you saying?

I'll probably figure it out tomorrow and feel more stupid.

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2010, 04:42:40 am »
I think I was vague.  I mean that if players are allowed to strategize and have each move be a well thought out decision, then mooks should be allowed some elementary strategies.

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2010, 04:59:20 am »
I think I was vague.  I mean that if players are allowed to strategize and have each move be a well thought out decision, then mooks should be allowed some elementary strategies.

Agreed. In fact that is something I got known for. PCs don't like being large caverns with poor illumination and mist when the baddies can wreath themselves in flicking shadows and don't have to use light to see.

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2010, 07:22:35 am »
It's no fun fighting things that act like they only exist to be killed.

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2010, 07:13:19 pm »
It's no fun fighting things that act like they only exist to be killed.

very true. But lots of players don't agree, and it get's magnified in MMOs, which thanks to the feedback of certain table top games emulating MMOs can get worse.

And at the same time, when your group is starting out you can't be flinging crazy crap at them.

As an aside I don't even play 3/3.5, I use AE/AU with some crossover stuff from 3/3.5, all the spellcasters use at least d6 for hit dice.

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2010, 07:32:18 pm »
"creatures that don't want to die" doesn't sound that crazy to me.

maybe this is why I haven't bothered getting a game group started.  Most gamers have irritating assumptions.

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2010, 07:33:11 pm »
It's no fun fighting things that act like they only exist to be killed.

very true. But lots of players don't agree, and it get's magnified in MMOs, which thanks to the feedback of certain table top games emulating MMOs can get worse.

And at the same time, when your group is starting out you can't be flinging crazy crap at them.

As an aside I don't even play 3/3.5, I use AE/AU with some crossover stuff from 3/3.5, all the spellcasters use at least d6 for hit dice.

Check out Pathfinder.
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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2010, 07:33:52 pm »
I think I was vague.  I mean that if players are allowed to strategize and have each move be a well thought out decision, then mooks should be allowed some elementary strategies.

If they don't, then your DM is a potzer.
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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2010, 07:34:22 pm »
As an aside I don't even play 3/3.5, I use AE/AU with some crossover stuff from 3/3.5, all the spellcasters use at least d6 for hit dice.

what's ae/au again?

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2010, 07:36:35 pm »
I think I was vague.  I mean that if players are allowed to strategize and have each move be a well thought out decision, then mooks should be allowed some elementary strategies.

If they don't, then your DM is a potzer.

Yeah, well.  Can't argue that one.  :lol:

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2010, 07:55:53 pm »
As an aside I don't even play 3/3.5, I use AE/AU with some crossover stuff from 3/3.5, all the spellcasters use at least d6 for hit dice.

what's ae/au again?

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Re: So where did these roles come from, anyway?
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2010, 08:03:40 pm »
As an aside I don't even play 3/3.5, I use AE/AU with some crossover stuff from 3/3.5, all the spellcasters use at least d6 for hit dice.

what's ae/au again?

Arcana Evolved/ Arcana Unearthed.http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?arcanaevolved

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