Hey Bill O! The REAL War on Christmas was waged and won a long time ago.

[Suu]

*Incidentally, that's the line of thinking I use concerning my brother's acceptance of Scientology.  He is demostrably a happier and nicer person than he used to be.  I think his belief system is utter bullshit, but (for now) it's completely working for him and has improved his life.

My mom was about to turn my drug-addict uncle over to the Scientologists with his inheritance money. She was dead fucking serious about it. It came to the point where she just figured that even though she hates the group, they may have been what was needed to fix him. Fortunately he came around.

[Suu]

Well, this thread turned out differently than I expected. 

And what do YOU want for Darwinmas, little boy?

[hooplala]

So it's not so much as who's right and wrong, because there is no definitive answer, nor there ever will be, but it's a matter of accepting the existence of different points of view.

If you're referring to your earlier point that religion isn't so much wrong as outdated, yes I would agree with you.  That was people doing the best that they could at the time to figure things out... much like alchemy at the time it was created wasn't really wrong either, it was the best they could do... but alchemy eventually evolved, some of it became aspects of chemistry and other aspects simply fell away when they were demonstrated not to be true.  This hasn't really happened with religion, and as religion is set up, it really can't.  I mean, yes, there has been some evolvement in churches, its certainly not how it was in the Middle Ages, but its still basically Q: "Why does it thunder?" A: "Because God is angry" when it comes down to it.

We can't see electricity, but we can demonstrate it exists... until someone can demonstrate ANY evidence in the existence of a god, I don't see why an intelligent person would waste their time with it.

By saying what you did, you basically said that every scientist ever who may have believed in some sort of god, and did amazing things to better the scientific world, faith aside, is less intelligent than you, because you DON'T believe that a god exists without proof.

No, all I said is that I don't understand why they would think that way.  I did say "waste their time", but from my perspective it is a waste of time.  It's no value judgement on them, everyone can believe in whatever they want, that doesn't mean I will like it, or understand it.  Just giving my perspective.

[AFK]

An electric hurdy-gurdy.  

I too grew up in a religious household.  Baptist to be precise.  Though, one that hasn't always been super strict about actually going to church.  I wasn't taken to church on a regular basis until I was probably 8 or 9.  I would go to the Bible school in the summer and learn the verses and sing the songs like all of the other good little children.  Reading the story of Jesus was a regular part of Christmas celebrations.  

I never really grew that attached to the religion.  When we did go, I was never really that fond of getting up early every Sunday to go to the church for two hours.  I believed everything I was supposed to believe.  I prayed every night like I was supposed to.  But, I pretty much left the whole ball of wax behind after my Grandmother, who has just been re-Baptised, died at a Hospital after what was supposed to be a fairly routine heart surgery.  At that point, it ceased to make any sense to me.  It seemed to be a bunch of faith in this phantom that was supposed to make us all better.  Yet, he just took one of my favorite people away.  Seemed like a bunch of bullshit, so I was done.  

As far as Christmas goes, my emotional attachment to the Holiday has much more to do with being with family and all of the family traditions.  That's why the Commercialism of it really turns my stomach.  I don't care about how it taints the religious aspect of the holiday.  I just don't like how it turns what should be a simple time of commradery with friends and family into a gigantic stress-ball of shit.  

[Suu]

If it makes you feel better, I know I gave up faith when my 5th grade teacher told me that my cat couldn't go to Heaven when he died, but I think the nail in the coffin was pro-life vs pro-choice. I was kicked out of my youth group at the church, and told my mom I wasn't going to church anymore, and she was fine with it. I didn't need a special building over my head to pray. Haven't looked back since.

Then I pretended I was Wiccan.  Lolhighschool.

I don't know where I lie, to be honest. Atheism just doesn't seem right to me, even though I'm a firm believer in all things SCIENCE!

I like Discordianism, whether you can consider it "real" or not. It makes sense to me right now.

[AFK]

I just consider myself a-religious.  I consider Discordianism more of a philosophy than anything else.  The closest thing I have to spirituality is when I'm playing music.  Otherwise, my approach to fate and everything is pretty much C'est la vie. 

[LMNO]

To me, it looks like this:

There are things in the experiential universe that haven't been explained yet (Weird Shit™1).
There are things that happen in the experiential universe that don't make sense to me, in terms of how I think the universe usually works (Weird Shit™2).
The human brain can experience so-called "trancendental" states of conciousness (Weird Shit™3).

Religions, in my view, tend to take Weird Shit™3 and Weird Shit™2, combine them to prove the existence of a powerful placeholder label, which then allows them to explain Weird Shit™1.

I personally don't think you need to have "god" in there.  It's just a lot of Weird Shit.

[Suu]

To me, it looks like this:

There are things in the experiential universe that haven't been explained yet (Weird Shit™1).
There are things that happen in the experiential universe that don't make sense to me, in terms of how I think the universe usually works (Weird Shit™2).
The human brain can experience so-called "trancendental" states of conciousness (Weird Shit™3).

Religions, in my view, tend to take Weird Shit™3 and Weird Shit™2, combine them to prove the existence of a powerful placeholder label, which then allows them to explain Weird Shit™1.

I personally don't think you need to have "god" in there.  It's just a lot of Weird Shit.

[Phox]

To me, it looks like this:

There are things in the experiential universe that haven't been explained yet (Weird Shit™1).
There are things that happen in the experiential universe that don't make sense to me, in terms of how I think the universe usually works (Weird Shit™2).
The human brain can experience so-called "trancendental" states of conciousness (Weird Shit™3).

Religions, in my view, tend to take Weird Shit™3 and Weird Shit™2, combine them to prove the existence of a powerful placeholder label, which then allows them to explain Weird Shit™1.

I personally don't think you need to have "god" in there.  It's just a lot of Weird Shit.

Nailed it.

[LMNO]

OSHIT.  CONCORD!

[Suu]

OSHIT.  CONCORD!

Brave, brave Concord?

[LMNO]

OSHIT.  CONCORD!

Brave, brave Concord?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

100% with LMNO's Hypothesis of Weird Shit (I mean, its not technically a theory yet, right   )

I'm gonna break from my usual line here, though. I think people should do whatever they want to do in order to cope with reality. If they want to look for facts and truth, they should. If they want to be part of the majority tribe and believe in some form of Sky Daddy, they should. If they want to get down and funky with Eris, then they should.

BUT, I disagree that Christianity teaches a basically good/useful message. The Christian belief system, as with most transcendental systems place focus on transcending this life to the next life... this life is just a shadow of the future. Further, it ingrains a system of guilt. You are unworthy of being with God, unless you accept that this dude DIED for you. You are a sinner, you are imperfect, you are fallen. Now, some progressive christian systems focus on only the nicer bits of the system (forgiveness, we all make mistakes and thats cool etc), but the foundation of the entire system is predicated on core tenants that are, in my opinion, unhealthy.

I don't mind that some people find comfort in faith. I don't mind that some people choose to believe that Grandma is in heaven looking down. If that makes them feel better, what difference does it really make if its true or false? I accept that some many people have no need to understand truth in detail... for most humans, belief in evolution or creation will not change their life in the slightest, but having a tribal identity may improve their life greatly.

In those ways, religion fills a need for people that have that sort of need. However, the guilt, the shame, the 'transcendent' nature of the belief ... in short, the entire focus of the Christian Holy Book is, in my opinion, a terrible, terrible thing to inflict on human beings.

[LMNO]

Perhaps, but humanity would have guilt, shame, and all the rest regardless of Xtianity... The bible simply codified it.

[hooplala]

For what it's worth, I also agree with LMNO on the Weird Shit hypothesis.  It's also the reason that, while I am very skeptical, often butt heads with other skeptics... a majority of them seem to be of the belief that nothing weird ever happens anywhere.