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SPLIT: Magidgique Discussion from Intro Thread

Started by Icey, January 31, 2011, 05:04:09 PM

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Icey

#30
January 31, 2011, 05:50:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 05:45:33 PM
As soon as you can give me a reasonable explanation as to how conciousness can violate known physical laws, I'll conceed your point.

You seem to be putting much faith into science. As for "known" physical laws, we used to "know" that our planet was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth.

Icey

#32
January 31, 2011, 05:52:47 PM
Rev, how do you even know there is an objective reality? Isn't concensus reality equally possible?

The Good Reverend Roger

#33
January 31, 2011, 05:52:57 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 05:50:56 PM
You seem to be putting much faith into science. As for "known" physical laws, we used to "know" that our planet was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth.

1.  You need to work on your definition of "science".  It's not an article of faith.

2.  Even the ancient Greeks knew the world was spherical.  It's only when people step away from math that they generate weird ideas about the shape of the Earth.  That was a regression, not an application of science.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#34
January 31, 2011, 05:53:53 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 05:52:47 PM
Rev, how do you even know there is an objective reality? Isn't concensus reality equally possible?

No.  Reality existed before consciousness.  This isn't the Matrix.  You can all agree that fire isn't hot.  Then stick your hand in it, and you'll see which reality applies.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Icey

#35
January 31, 2011, 05:55:47 PM
Who said you had to have consciousness to have consensus reality?

The Good Reverend Roger

#36
January 31, 2011, 05:56:26 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 05:55:47 PM
Who said you had to have consciousness to have consensus reality?

Without consciousness, where's the consensus?

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Icey

#37
January 31, 2011, 05:58:26 PM
Animalistic perception which we view to be devoid of conciousness, could have potentially held together such a construct.

The Good Reverend Roger

#38
January 31, 2011, 06:02:37 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 05:58:26 PM
Animalistic perception which we view to be devoid of conciousness, could have potentially held together such a construct.

And before there were animals?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

#39
January 31, 2011, 06:03:53 PM
Ok, let's say that consensus reality exists, and furthermore that it's not even contingent on consciousness.

Which means that in all reliable verifiable observations made for at least the last hundred years, if not the last thousand, the universe behaves as if there are known physical laws.


And even after all that, you still haven't explained how your Chaos Magick affects them.

Luna

#40
January 31, 2011, 06:04:54 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 05:50:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 05:45:33 PM
As soon as you can give me a reasonable explanation as to how conciousness can violate known physical laws, I'll conceed your point.

You seem to be putting much faith into science. As for "known" physical laws, we used to "know" that our planet was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth.

There's a significant difference I've seen between those who promote science and those who promote "magick."

Those who put their faith in science are always looking for new explanations.  Yep, we used to "know" that our planet is flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth.  Now, we know otherwise, because of science.

Those who put their faith in magick, of whatever flavor (and I include many religions, here), tend to believe either whatever crap their particular holy book tells them is true, or whatever the heck they want to believe, because it's easier than actually exploring the reality they happen to exist in.
Death-dealing hormone freak of deliciousness
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"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement."

Quote from: The Payne on November 16, 2011, 07:08:55 PM
If Luna was a furry, she'd sex humans and scream "BEASTIALITY!" at the top of her lungs at inopportune times.

Quote from: Nigel on March 24, 2011, 01:54:48 AM
I like the Luna one. She is a good one.

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"Stop talking to yourself.  You don't like you any better than anyone else who knows you."

The Good Reverend Roger

#41
January 31, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 06:03:53 PM
Ok, let's say that consensus reality exists, and furthermore that it's not even contingent on consciousness.

Which means that in all reliable verifiable observations made for at least the last hundred years, if not the last thousand, the universe behaves as if there are known physical laws.


And even after all that, you still haven't explained how your Chaos Magick affects them.

Or, hell, let's get down to brass tacks.  Can Chaos Magick produce measurable, repeatable results?

Because from everything I've heard and seen, it's just a big, drippy sack of confirmation bias.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#42
January 31, 2011, 06:07:06 PM
Quote from: Luna on January 31, 2011, 06:04:54 PM
Those who put their faith in science are always looking for new explanations.  Yep, we used to "know" that our planet is flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth.  Now, we know otherwise, because of science.

Those who put their faith in magick, of whatever flavor (and I include many religions, here), tend to believe either whatever crap their particular holy book tells them is true, or whatever the heck they want to believe, because it's easier than actually exploring the reality they happen to exist in.

This.  One hallmark of pseudoscience is that it doesn't progress.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cramulus

#43
January 31, 2011, 06:08:41 PM
Can somebody bump or link us to one of the existing MADGIDUQE threads? I know we all love arguing the same points over and over again, but maybe if we read through the old threads somebody can bring something new to the discussion?

The Good Reverend Roger

#44
January 31, 2011, 06:09:07 PM
QuoteAbsence of progressFailure to progress towards additional evidence of its claims.[45] Terence Hines has identified astrology as a subject that has changed very little in the past two millennia.[46] (see also: Scientific progress)

Lack of self correction: scientific research programmes make mistakes, but they tend to eliminate these errors over time.[47] By contrast, theories may be accused of being pseudoscientific because they have remained unaltered despite contradictory evidence. The work Scientists Confront Velikovsky (1976) Cornell University, also delves into these features in some detail, as does the work of Thomas Kuhn, e.g. The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1962) which also discusses some of the items on the list of characteristics of pseudoscience.

Statistical significance of supporting experimental results does not improve over time and are usually close to the cutoff for statistical significance. Normally, experimental techniques improve or the experiments are repeated and this gives ever stronger evidence. If statistical significance does not improve, this typically shows that the experiments have just been repeated until a success occurs due to chance variations.

From here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

The section on confirmation vs refutation is pretty good as well.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.
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