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SPLIT: Magidgique Discussion from Intro Thread

Started by Icey, January 31, 2011, 05:04:09 PM

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Icey

#60
January 31, 2011, 07:37:30 PM
Yeah. We affect causality on a daily basis. I don't see what is so strange about that.

Sister Fracture

#61
January 31, 2011, 07:38:45 PM
 :drama1:
Roaring Berserkery Bunny of the North End™

A Tucsonite is like a Christian in several important ways.  For one thing, they believe what they say about their god in the most literal, straightfaced way possible.  For another, they both know their god can hear them.  The difference between the two, however, is quite vast in terms of their relationship with their god; Christians believe in His benevolence, but Tucsonites KNOW of The City's spite and hate.

The Good Reverend Roger

#62
January 31, 2011, 07:38:52 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
Yes and no. Chaos magic bends the odds, not breaks them.

Please explain the mechanism behind this.  Causalty is a well-understood principle, and forms the underpinnings of the entire universe as we know it.  If you've found a way to alter that using Chaos Magick, I'd be interested in hearing the mechanics.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

#63
January 31, 2011, 07:41:00 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:37:30 PM
Yeah. We affect causality on a daily basis. I don't see what is so strange about that.

Our present acts affect the future, yes.  You're talking about acting in the present and changing the past to suit your needs.


You haven't really thought this one all the way through, have you?

The Good Reverend Roger

#64
January 31, 2011, 07:41:43 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:37:30 PM
Yeah. We affect causality on a daily basis. I don't see what is so strange about that.

No, we take actions that change the environment that causalty occurs in.  We don't change the way the universe drops the barstool.

Let me give you an example:  The lottery machines used for most state lotteries...There is an almost truly random process driving any given ball out of the machine.  If you can affect causalty, rather than just your environment, you should be able to significantly alter the odds of winning the lottery.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

AFK

#65
January 31, 2011, 07:42:05 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
Yes and no. Chaos magic bends the odds, not breaks them. I can't really make a bowl of pudding appear out of thin air (though I'd love to) because even if I were to bend said odds, it's still horrendously unlikely for said action to happen. Now, if I wanted something easier to happen, say, I want a localized power outage. I'm playing with better odds. It's much more likely (even though it may still be unlikely on average comparison) and that can be made to happen, though it may be not the way you wanted it to happen.

Well sure, that is, if you are considering chaos magic to be a brick of C4 detonated at your local sub-station.  

QuoteAs for the confirmation bias, that's the kicker. If I did the whole ritual deal to get something to happen, say a rainstorm. How can I prove that it was me somehow pulling the strings, and not just what was already going to happen? I can't. At the end of the day, it comes down to subjective belief.

Uh, no, you can objectively observe weather patterns to determine that the rainstorm would've happened whether or not you were mumbling incoherent nonsense in your head.  

QuoteOne, whatever "power" I have isn't some ethereal nonsense that god gives me. If I want a hamburger, sitting on my ass talking about this is not going to increase the odds of me getting a hamburger. Going to fucking McDonalds will increase my odds. So, I'm not going to sit and sigil night and day for money, because that doesn't help you get money. Getting a job does. Chaos magic is about altering odds to gain or discourage what you want. Which, turns out, includes mundane tasks as well.

Uh, no.  Having motivation and getting your ass off the couch is what helps you get mundane tasks done.  Not "chaos magic".  

QuoteTwo, the main, 100% goal of chaos magic is to induce evolution of the self. I.E. dropping restrictions that you place on self "I can't be an artist. I suck" and to create a more objective worldview, because getting all wrapped up in modern belief systems leads us to create disgusting internal blocks on what we really want. Essentially, chaos magic seeks to do somewhat what your BIP does.

Again, not chaos magic.  That is what we call self-discipline and motivation.  Two things which really don't take any kind of magic.  It does take, however, not being a lazy bum.  

Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

AFK

#66
January 31, 2011, 07:42:55 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:37:30 PM
Yeah. We affect causality on a daily basis. I don't see what is so strange about that.

How.  You keep making declarative statements about this but you aren't explaining the "how". 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

The Good Reverend Roger

#67
January 31, 2011, 07:43:33 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 31, 2011, 07:42:05 PM
Again, not chaos magic.  That is what we call self-discipline and motivation.  Two things which really don't take any kind of magic.  It does take, however, not being a lazy bum.  

:motorcycle:
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Icey

#68
January 31, 2011, 07:46:19 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 07:41:00 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:37:30 PM
Yeah. We affect causality on a daily basis. I don't see what is so strange about that.

Our present acts affect the future, yes.  You're talking about acting in the present and changing the past to suit your needs.


You haven't really thought this one all the way through, have you?

I have actually thought this through, however insane I may be.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 07:38:52 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
Yes and no. Chaos magic bends the odds, not breaks them.

Please explain the mechanism behind this.  Causalty is a well-understood principle, and forms the underpinnings of the entire universe as we know it.  If you've found a way to alter that using Chaos Magick, I'd be interested in hearing the mechanics.

Chaos magic believes that will, though intangible, can alter odds indirectly. Now, I'm not saying that this isn't hokey by any means, but it's possible.

Over an infinite timeline, all things will come to pass.

The Good Reverend Roger

#69
January 31, 2011, 07:46:31 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
Now, if I wanted something easier to happen, say, I want a localized power outage. I'm playing with better odds.

No, you aren't.  Equipment failure is not a random event.  It's predictable, and is a function of the age and quality of the equipment, the run time of the equipment, and the maintenance time spent on the equipment.  This is what I do for a living (maintenance manager at a refinery).  There are almost no "odds" of equipment failure.

Again, this is confirmation bias, at best.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#70
January 31, 2011, 07:47:48 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:46:19 PM

Over an infinite timeline, all things will come to pass.


Not true.  I can name any number of things that will NEVER happen, no matter how much time is given to the situation.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Icey

#71
January 31, 2011, 07:48:57 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 07:47:48 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:46:19 PM

Over an infinite timeline, all things will come to pass.


Not true.  I can name any number of things that will NEVER happen, no matter how much time is given to the situation.

Okay. Tell me one event that will never happen.

LMNO

#72
January 31, 2011, 07:49:08 PM
In order to change causality to affect you in the present, you have to be able to go back in time and change the trillions of things that happened and change them in a way that personally benefits you.  And that's just one second ago, which won't help much.  

You still haven't explained this time travel yet; and even if you manage to do that (which I doubt you will), you then have the problem of changing a vast number of past events-- so vast, you may as well call them infinite.  

You also run into the paradox of the deterministic universe, which you also need to explain.

Again, you really haven't thought this one through, have you?

Sister Fracture

#73
January 31, 2011, 07:49:32 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 07:47:48 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:46:19 PM

Over an infinite timeline, all things will come to pass.


Not true.  I can name any number of things that will NEVER happen, no matter how much time is given to the situation.

And it's irrelevant anyway, since no one and nothi8ng anywhere has forever.
Roaring Berserkery Bunny of the North End™

A Tucsonite is like a Christian in several important ways.  For one thing, they believe what they say about their god in the most literal, straightfaced way possible.  For another, they both know their god can hear them.  The difference between the two, however, is quite vast in terms of their relationship with their god; Christians believe in His benevolence, but Tucsonites KNOW of The City's spite and hate.

AFK

#74
January 31, 2011, 07:50:02 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:48:57 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 07:47:48 PM
Quote from: Icey on January 31, 2011, 07:46:19 PM

Over an infinite timeline, all things will come to pass.


Not true.  I can name any number of things that will NEVER happen, no matter how much time is given to the situation.

Okay. Tell me one event that will never happen.

The Sun NOT dying. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.
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