Psychology applied to territory, triggered this one!

[Thurnez Isa]

there wouldn't have been 1500 years of human sacrifice to bring rain in Meso-America,

well not with you as a rain-god.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

there wouldn't have been 1500 years of human sacrifice to bring rain in Meso-America,

well not with you as a rain-god.

Fuck them.  "Bring me women", I said.  They threw the women down wells.

"NO CORN FOR YOU," I replied, "YOU FUCKING CUNTS."

And everyone died.

Moral:  When Roger says he wants women, he'd prefer they weren't drowned first.

[Thurnez Isa]

  <----- That literally just happened

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Psychology is definitely a science, but it's a weird combination of hard and soft science.  It is most definitely a tool that can be used to manipulate people, for good or bad.  That is probably one of the main reasons I have such issues with psychology as a professional field when it is not dealt with as a science.  I've seen way too many instances of people misusing their training when counseling people or simply not understanding their field enough to know what they are doing.  When a fourteen year old boy can totally hoodwink a trained psychologist....  

From my study of shamanism I quickly learned that, to be successful as a shaman in their tribe or group of influence, a shaman HAS to be a master of psychology, trickster, charlatan, manipulator, doesn't matter the word you use they have to be one.  Some of the stories out there are amazing.  The methods and application vary, but it all comes down to understanding social dynamics, thought processes and understanding how to manipulate those to achieve the desired effect.  

It's not just shamans though, pretty much any social leader has to have a good grasp on psychology to remain a leader for long.  That or their immediate support group does...

What.

Psychologists abuse science and are easily manipulated by 14 year olds.

Shamans are effective because they are masters of social dynamics.

So I was reading this textbook recently, it was on evolutionary cognitive neuroscience...

Is that psychology?

THUNDERBOLTS UPON THY SCROTUM IS PSYCHOLOGY!!!

[Jasper]

  Fine, fine.  Just needling you for having such a magnificently large paintbrush.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

  Fine, fine.  Just needling you for having such a magnificently large paintbrush.

I was explaining to Phox how I was interpreting Wyldkat's post—probably should've done a better job showing the sarcastic intent.

[Jasper]

FUCK MY READING COMPREHENSION no it's there I see it now. 

Agh.  See what happens when Sig only drinks half a pot of coffee for breakfast?

[Luna]

<----- That literally just happened

Roger made it rain on yer keyboard!

[Thurnez Isa]

I will say though I do kind of agree with her on the group psychology thing. Although sure "rain dances" did shit all for the weather it probably did wonders in maintaining the power structure of that society.
Of course that was an extreme example, and of course a negative one but the principle should apply to more positive social makeups and smaller ones.
I wouldn't call that a science though, at least off the top of my head. It could fall into a field of study perhaps.

[Requia ☣]

Psychology is definitely a science, but it's a weird combination of hard and soft science.  It is most definitely a tool that can be used to manipulate people, for good or bad.  That is probably one of the main reasons I have such issues with psychology as a professional field when it is not dealt with as a science.  I've seen way too many instances of people misusing their training when counseling people or simply not understanding their field enough to know what they are doing.  When a fourteen year old boy can totally hoodwink a trained psychologist.... 

From my study of shamanism I quickly learned that, to be successful as a shaman in their tribe or group of influence, a shaman HAS to be a master of psychology, trickster, charlatan, manipulator, doesn't matter the word you use they have to be one.  Some of the stories out there are amazing.  The methods and application vary, but it all comes down to understanding social dynamics, thought processes and understanding how to manipulate those to achieve the desired effect. 

It's not just shamans though, pretty much any social leader has to have a good grasp on psychology to remain a leader for long.  That or their immediate support group does...

Um.

Wait.

Science = Shamanism?

Not quite what I said, but correct in a way.  Shamans through out history have had to rely on observation and repetition of results to achieve their goals.  Not today's science, but part of the foundation of it.

I was trying to point out the importance of understanding psychology to leaders of groups and attempting to make the point that that knowledge was necessary no matter what the technological level, but obviously I didn't get that part across very clearly.  Not surprising seeing as I'm going on about 3 hours of sleep.  Basically for someone to lead a group of people they have to understand the dynamics of the group and of the people in it (that part gets more general the larger the group).  They don't have to be scientists or even have a degree is anything to do this, but it is still the application of knowledge of psychological principles even if the people applying the knowledge don't realize that.

Something can be a science and used scientifically both skillfully and unskillfully.  The ways I have seen it applied in the field of psychological therapy have been very unskillful and very unscientific.  The fact that a fourteen year old boy can fool someone with a college degree at her own profession was an attempt to make that point.  

What you're talking about has very little to do with psychology.  For starters that theoretical 14 year old boy probably isn't talking to a psychologist.  He's talking to a social worker or a psychiatrist or some other profession that does therapy..  Now yes, therapy derives from psychology, but so do a hell of a lot of other things you aren't even considering.

What Roger was talking about, the way we train modern soldiers?  That's psychology.  Apple's product design and marketing departments are full to bursting with psychology majors.  When somebody asks you if you want fries with that, psychology.

Those shamans you speak of have no psychology, they have personal opinions, and not the first clue how to seperate fact from delusion.  They bear as much relationship to psychology as Aristotle does to modern physics.  Sure they might be smart, and some of what they think is true might be correct, but they lack the basic methods for telling a good idea from a bad idea.

And don't tell me they learn by experience, learning by experience is how we got doctors who though leeching was a nifty idea.

[Wyldkat]

If Shamans used repetition to gauge outcomes, there wouldn't have been 1500 years of human sacrifice to bring rain in Meso-America, and the whole "ghost dance" and "bullet-proof shirts" things wouldn't have been very popular for long.

LOL  I never said that everything that was done in the past by shamans (or anyone else for that matter) was proven right.  Heck the scientists thought the sun went around the earth and that the earth was flat for how long?

The trial and error and repetition of response comes into play with things like herbalism and certain healing rituals that are very firmly based on the psychological response and beliefs of the patient.

[Don Coyote]

If Shamans used repetition to gauge outcomes, there wouldn't have been 1500 years of human sacrifice to bring rain in Meso-America, and the whole "ghost dance" and "bullet-proof shirts" things wouldn't have been very popular for long.

LOL  I never said that everything that was done in the past by shamans (or anyone else for that matter) was proven right.  Heck the scientists thought the sun went around the earth and that the earth was flat for how long?

The trial and error and repetition of response comes into play with things like herbalism and certain healing rituals that are very firmly based on the psychological response and beliefs of the patient.

Really? Didn't like those toga wearing dudes with the fixation on little boys have an understanding that the world was both round but also revolved around the Sun? I could be wrong.

[East Coast Hustle]

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

From my study of shamanism I quickly lost any shred of credibility I might have on the subject.

How I read that post.

[East Coast Hustle]

Heck the scientists thought the sun went around the earth and that the earth was flat for how long?

For about never. But plenty of superstitious idiots thought that for a very long time.

[East Coast Hustle]

I have identified your problem, Wyldkat. It appears as though there's an extremely high probability that you're talking completely out of your ass.