Psychology applied to territory, triggered this one!

[BadBeast]

Also, some psychology is science.  It can be measured, tested, and repeated.  Leary's work on "circuits", for example, is used by advertisers and the US government (military basic training is the most obvious example), because it WORKS.  EVERY TIME.

On the other hand, a pile of it is failed ideas that people still teach as valid.  Freud, for example, is utter shit, but doesn't invalidate the parts of psychology that actually are measurable.

Agreed. And who knows what other mind fuckery they got from the MKULTRA Research . You can be certain they have some pretty polished and failsafe mind reaming tools in the back room, ready for deployment.  

[Aufenthatt]

Nice rant. Too bad the first 2 posters to comment on it couldn't keep their pedantry in their pants.

When faced with "Psychology isn't a science", envoke the might Wilhelm Wundt.
That he was an early psychologyist is a moot point. The man could make water walk on his surface.

The mention of his name makes the average new age spagbandit shit themselves and flee.

[East Coast Hustle]

I think you meant "invoke".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think you meant "invoke".

[Wyldkat]

Psychology is definitely a science, but it's a weird combination of hard and soft science.  It is most definitely a tool that can be used to manipulate people, for good or bad.  That is probably one of the main reasons I have such issues with psychology as a professional field when it is not dealt with as a science.  I've seen way too many instances of people misusing their training when counseling people or simply not understanding their field enough to know what they are doing.  When a fourteen year old boy can totally hoodwink a trained psychologist.... 

From my study of shamanism I quickly learned that, to be successful as a shaman in their tribe or group of influence, a shaman HAS to be a master of psychology, trickster, charlatan, manipulator, doesn't matter the word you use they have to be one.  Some of the stories out there are amazing.  The methods and application vary, but it all comes down to understanding social dynamics, thought processes and understanding how to manipulate those to achieve the desired effect. 

It's not just shamans though, pretty much any social leader has to have a good grasp on psychology to remain a leader for long.  That or their immediate support group does...

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Psychology is definitely a science, but it's a weird combination of hard and soft science.  It is most definitely a tool that can be used to manipulate people, for good or bad.  That is probably one of the main reasons I have such issues with psychology as a professional field when it is not dealt with as a science.  I've seen way too many instances of people misusing their training when counseling people or simply not understanding their field enough to know what they are doing.  When a fourteen year old boy can totally hoodwink a trained psychologist.... 

From my study of shamanism I quickly learned that, to be successful as a shaman in their tribe or group of influence, a shaman HAS to be a master of psychology, trickster, charlatan, manipulator, doesn't matter the word you use they have to be one.  Some of the stories out there are amazing.  The methods and application vary, but it all comes down to understanding social dynamics, thought processes and understanding how to manipulate those to achieve the desired effect. 

It's not just shamans though, pretty much any social leader has to have a good grasp on psychology to remain a leader for long.  That or their immediate support group does...

Um.

Wait.

Science = Shamanism?

[Phox]

Psychology is definitely a science, but it's a weird combination of hard and soft science.  It is most definitely a tool that can be used to manipulate people, for good or bad.  That is probably one of the main reasons I have such issues with psychology as a professional field when it is not dealt with as a science.  I've seen way too many instances of people misusing their training when counseling people or simply not understanding their field enough to know what they are doing.  When a fourteen year old boy can totally hoodwink a trained psychologist.... 

From my study of shamanism I quickly learned that, to be successful as a shaman in their tribe or group of influence, a shaman HAS to be a master of psychology, trickster, charlatan, manipulator, doesn't matter the word you use they have to be one.  Some of the stories out there are amazing.  The methods and application vary, but it all comes down to understanding social dynamics, thought processes and understanding how to manipulate those to achieve the desired effect. 

It's not just shamans though, pretty much any social leader has to have a good grasp on psychology to remain a leader for long.  That or their immediate support group does...

What.

[Thurnez Isa]

Psychology is definitely a science, but it's a weird combination of hard and soft science.  It is most definitely a tool that can be used to manipulate people, for good or bad.  That is probably one of the main reasons I have such issues with psychology as a professional field when it is not dealt with as a science.  I've seen way too many instances of people misusing their training when counseling people or simply not understanding their field enough to know what they are doing.  When a fourteen year old boy can totally hoodwink a trained psychologist.... 

From my study of shamanism I quickly learned that, to be successful as a shaman in their tribe or group of influence, a shaman HAS to be a master of psychology, trickster, charlatan, manipulator, doesn't matter the word you use they have to be one.  Some of the stories out there are amazing.  The methods and application vary, but it all comes down to understanding social dynamics, thought processes and understanding how to manipulate those to achieve the desired effect. 

It's not just shamans though, pretty much any social leader has to have a good grasp on psychology to remain a leader for long.  That or their immediate support group does...

Um.

Wait.

Science = Shamanism?

I hope not. Cause that would mean I'm doing it the hard way

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Psychology is definitely a science, but it's a weird combination of hard and soft science.  It is most definitely a tool that can be used to manipulate people, for good or bad.  That is probably one of the main reasons I have such issues with psychology as a professional field when it is not dealt with as a science.  I've seen way too many instances of people misusing their training when counseling people or simply not understanding their field enough to know what they are doing.  When a fourteen year old boy can totally hoodwink a trained psychologist....  

From my study of shamanism I quickly learned that, to be successful as a shaman in their tribe or group of influence, a shaman HAS to be a master of psychology, trickster, charlatan, manipulator, doesn't matter the word you use they have to be one.  Some of the stories out there are amazing.  The methods and application vary, but it all comes down to understanding social dynamics, thought processes and understanding how to manipulate those to achieve the desired effect.  

It's not just shamans though, pretty much any social leader has to have a good grasp on psychology to remain a leader for long.  That or their immediate support group does...

What.

Psychologists abuse science and are easily manipulated by 14 year olds.

Shamans are effective because they are masters of social dynamics.

[Phox]

I have never "UNG'd" before. Depending on what gets said, I just might.

Phox,
Money's on UNG.

[Wyldkat]

Psychology is definitely a science, but it's a weird combination of hard and soft science.  It is most definitely a tool that can be used to manipulate people, for good or bad.  That is probably one of the main reasons I have such issues with psychology as a professional field when it is not dealt with as a science.  I've seen way too many instances of people misusing their training when counseling people or simply not understanding their field enough to know what they are doing.  When a fourteen year old boy can totally hoodwink a trained psychologist.... 

From my study of shamanism I quickly learned that, to be successful as a shaman in their tribe or group of influence, a shaman HAS to be a master of psychology, trickster, charlatan, manipulator, doesn't matter the word you use they have to be one.  Some of the stories out there are amazing.  The methods and application vary, but it all comes down to understanding social dynamics, thought processes and understanding how to manipulate those to achieve the desired effect. 

It's not just shamans though, pretty much any social leader has to have a good grasp on psychology to remain a leader for long.  That or their immediate support group does...

Um.

Wait.

Science = Shamanism?

Not quite what I said, but correct in a way.  Shamans through out history have had to rely on observation and repetition of results to achieve their goals.  Not today's science, but part of the foundation of it.

I was trying to point out the importance of understanding psychology to leaders of groups and attempting to make the point that that knowledge was necessary no matter what the technological level, but obviously I didn't get that part across very clearly.  Not surprising seeing as I'm going on about 3 hours of sleep.  Basically for someone to lead a group of people they have to understand the dynamics of the group and of the people in it (that part gets more general the larger the group).  They don't have to be scientists or even have a degree is anything to do this, but it is still the application of knowledge of psychological principles even if the people applying the knowledge don't realize that.

Something can be a science and used scientifically both skillfully and unskillfully.  The ways I have seen it applied in the field of psychological therapy have been very unskillful and very unscientific.  The fact that a fourteen year old boy can fool someone with a college degree at her own profession was an attempt to make that point.  

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Psychology is definitely a science, but it's a weird combination of hard and soft science.  It is most definitely a tool that can be used to manipulate people, for good or bad.  That is probably one of the main reasons I have such issues with psychology as a professional field when it is not dealt with as a science.  I've seen way too many instances of people misusing their training when counseling people or simply not understanding their field enough to know what they are doing.  When a fourteen year old boy can totally hoodwink a trained psychologist.... 

From my study of shamanism I quickly learned that, to be successful as a shaman in their tribe or group of influence, a shaman HAS to be a master of psychology, trickster, charlatan, manipulator, doesn't matter the word you use they have to be one.  Some of the stories out there are amazing.  The methods and application vary, but it all comes down to understanding social dynamics, thought processes and understanding how to manipulate those to achieve the desired effect. 

It's not just shamans though, pretty much any social leader has to have a good grasp on psychology to remain a leader for long.  That or their immediate support group does...

Um.

Wait.

Science = Shamanism?

Not quite what I said, but correct in a way.  Shamans through out history have had to rely on observation and repetition of results to achieve their goals.  Not today's science, but part of the foundation of it.

I was trying to point out the importance of understanding psychology to leaders of groups and attempting to make the point that that knowledge was necessary no matter what the technological level, but obviously I didn't get that part across very clearly.  Not surprising seeing as I'm going on about 3 hours of sleep.  Basically for someone to lead a group of people they have to understand the dynamics of the group and of the people in it (that part gets more general the larger the group).  They don't have to be scientists or even have a degree is anything to do this, but it is still the application of knowledge of psychological principles even if the people applying the knowledge don't realize that.

Something can be a science and used scientifically both skillfully and unskillfully.  The ways I have seen it applied in the field of psychological therapy have been very unskillful and very unscientific.  The fact that a fourteen year old boy can fool someone with a college degree at her own profession was an attempt to make that point.  

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

If Shamans used repetition to gauge outcomes, there wouldn't have been 1500 years of human sacrifice to bring rain in Meso-America, and the whole "ghost dance" and "bullet-proof shirts" things wouldn't have been very popular for long.

[Phox]

UNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

ETA: Damn, Roger beat me to it.

[Jasper]

Psychology is definitely a science, but it's a weird combination of hard and soft science.  It is most definitely a tool that can be used to manipulate people, for good or bad.  That is probably one of the main reasons I have such issues with psychology as a professional field when it is not dealt with as a science.  I've seen way too many instances of people misusing their training when counseling people or simply not understanding their field enough to know what they are doing.  When a fourteen year old boy can totally hoodwink a trained psychologist....  

From my study of shamanism I quickly learned that, to be successful as a shaman in their tribe or group of influence, a shaman HAS to be a master of psychology, trickster, charlatan, manipulator, doesn't matter the word you use they have to be one.  Some of the stories out there are amazing.  The methods and application vary, but it all comes down to understanding social dynamics, thought processes and understanding how to manipulate those to achieve the desired effect.  

It's not just shamans though, pretty much any social leader has to have a good grasp on psychology to remain a leader for long.  That or their immediate support group does...

What.

Psychologists abuse science and are easily manipulated by 14 year olds.

Shamans are effective because they are masters of social dynamics.

So I was reading this textbook recently, it was on evolutionary cognitive neuroscience...

Is that psychology?

[Phox]

If Shamans used repetition to gauge outcomes, there wouldn't have been 1500 years of human sacrifice to bring rain in Meso-America, and the whole "ghost dance" and "bullet-proof shirts" things wouldn't have been very popular for long.

This.

In addition, I posit that most people will generally take the things one says to a counselor/therapist/psychologist at face value, under the assumption that people actually want to get better. Flaw in the system, sure, but still.