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Psychology applied to territory, triggered this one!

Started by BadBeast, March 18, 2011, 02:09:25 PM

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Thurnez Isa

Quote from: Donald Coyote on April 12, 2011, 05:18:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on April 12, 2011, 05:15:37 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 12, 2011, 03:46:53 AM

If Shamans used repetition to gauge outcomes, there wouldn't have been 1500 years of human sacrifice to bring rain in Meso-America, and the whole "ghost dance" and "bullet-proof shirts" things wouldn't have been very popular for long.

LOL  I never said that everything that was done in the past by shamans (or anyone else for that matter) was proven right.  Heck the scientists thought the sun went around the earth and that the earth was flat for how long?

The trial and error and repetition of response comes into play with things like herbalism and certain healing rituals that are very firmly based on the psychological response and beliefs of the patient.

Really? Didn't like those toga wearing dudes with the fixation on little boys have an understanding that the world was both round but also revolved around the Sun? I could be wrong.

There was a debate between the two models. The Heliocentric model lost cause it couldn't predict where the planets would be at anyone time. Aristarchus was one of the more famous proponents, also the ancient Indians (Hindus) played with the idea as well. But it went back it forth with the Heliocentric model only slowly gaining more predictable value by the time of Kepler and his laws of planetary motions. Even after Newton there was still some geocentric support. It wasn't completely resolved until Bessel.
But it had to do with what model was better at predicting the motion of planets at anyone time. Of course religion and politics got involved as well.

See even though those astronomy classes where 3 hours long and started at 8:00 pm I didn't completely sleep through them.
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.

Dante

Don Coyote

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on April 12, 2011, 05:33:28 AM
Quote from: Donald Coyote on April 12, 2011, 05:18:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on April 12, 2011, 05:15:37 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 12, 2011, 03:46:53 AM

If Shamans used repetition to gauge outcomes, there wouldn't have been 1500 years of human sacrifice to bring rain in Meso-America, and the whole "ghost dance" and "bullet-proof shirts" things wouldn't have been very popular for long.

LOL  I never said that everything that was done in the past by shamans (or anyone else for that matter) was proven right.  Heck the scientists thought the sun went around the earth and that the earth was flat for how long?

The trial and error and repetition of response comes into play with things like herbalism and certain healing rituals that are very firmly based on the psychological response and beliefs of the patient.

Really? Didn't like those toga wearing dudes with the fixation on little boys have an understanding that the world was both round but also revolved around the Sun? I could be wrong.

There was a debate between the two models. The Heliocentric model lost cause it couldn't predict where the planets would be at anyone time. Aristarchus was one of the more famous proponents, also the ancient Indians (Hindus) played with the idea as well. But it went back it forth with the Heliocentric model only slowly gaining more predictable value by the time of Kepler and his laws of planetary motions. Even after Newton there was still some geocentric support. It wasn't completely resolved until Bessel.
But it had to do with what model was better at predicting the motion of planets at anyone time. Of course religion and politics got involved as well.

See even though those astronomy classes where 3 hours long and started at 8:00 pm I didn't completely sleep through them.

Well fuck. Learned something today.


Slyph

Superstition is all about "repetition of results", it just doesn't compensate for cognitive biases and flaws

"Accidental reinforcement of a response can lead to superstitious behaviour. Skinner demonstrated the conditioning of such behaviour using pigeons. He set the dispenser to deliver food to animals in an operant chamber at fixed time intervals, for example every 15 minutes. The pigeons associated whatever behaviour they were engaging in at the time of the food being dispensed with the delivery of the food. The likelihood of those behaviours occuring then increased. Skinner conditioned pigeons to spin around in circles, nod their heads, or to make swaying motions." (Nye, 1992)

Luna

There was a book I read when I was a kid...  I'm going to have to track it down, somehow...  Was about a bunch of kids stuffed into an experiment...  "House of Stairs," maybe?  Pretty much the same thing as the pigeons, the food pellets dropping was what conditioned behavior...

ETA:

http://www.amazon.com/House-Stairs-William-Sleator/dp/0140345809/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302609506&sr=8-1

Yeah, that's it...
Death-dealing hormone freak of deliciousness
Pagan-Stomping Valkyrie of the Interbutts™
Rampaging Slayer of Shit-Fountain Habitues

"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement."

Quote from: The Payne on November 16, 2011, 07:08:55 PM
If Luna was a furry, she'd sex humans and scream "BEASTIALITY!" at the top of her lungs at inopportune times.

Quote from: Nigel on March 24, 2011, 01:54:48 AM
I like the Luna one. She is a good one.

Quote
"Stop talking to yourself.  You don't like you any better than anyone else who knows you."

Phox

Protip: Do never invoke shamanism/religion/superstitious fuckery in scientific discussions.

Quote from: Donald Coyote on April 12, 2011, 05:18:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on April 12, 2011, 05:15:37 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 12, 2011, 03:46:53 AM

If Shamans used repetition to gauge outcomes, there wouldn't have been 1500 years of human sacrifice to bring rain in Meso-America, and the whole "ghost dance" and "bullet-proof shirts" things wouldn't have been very popular for long.

LOL  I never said that everything that was done in the past by shamans (or anyone else for that matter) was proven right.  Heck the scientists thought the sun went around the earth and that the earth was flat for how long?

The trial and error and repetition of response comes into play with things like herbalism and certain healing rituals that are very firmly based on the psychological response and beliefs of the patient.

Really? Didn't like those toga wearing dudes with the fixation on little boys have an understanding that the world was both round but also revolved around the Sun? I could be wrong.

Yes. But they didn't wear togas.  :lol:

Don Coyote

Quote from: Luna on April 12, 2011, 12:00:03 PM
There was a book I read when I was a kid...  I'm going to have to track it down, somehow...  Was about a bunch of kids stuffed into an experiment...  "House of Stairs," maybe?  Pretty much the same thing as the pigeons, the food pellets dropping was what conditioned behavior...

ETA:

http://www.amazon.com/House-Stairs-William-Sleator/dp/0140345809/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302609506&sr=8-1

Yeah, that's it...

The pigeon thing made me flash back to that book.


Quote from: Doktor Phox on April 12, 2011, 12:47:48 PM
Protip: Do never invoke shamanism/religion/superstitious fuckery in scientific discussions.

Quote from: Donald Coyote on April 12, 2011, 05:18:02 AM
Quote from: Wyldkat on April 12, 2011, 05:15:37 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 12, 2011, 03:46:53 AM

If Shamans used repetition to gauge outcomes, there wouldn't have been 1500 years of human sacrifice to bring rain in Meso-America, and the whole "ghost dance" and "bullet-proof shirts" things wouldn't have been very popular for long.

LOL  I never said that everything that was done in the past by shamans (or anyone else for that matter) was proven right.  Heck the scientists thought the sun went around the earth and that the earth was flat for how long?

The trial and error and repetition of response comes into play with things like herbalism and certain healing rituals that are very firmly based on the psychological response and beliefs of the patient.

Really? Didn't like those toga wearing dudes with the fixation on little boys have an understanding that the world was both round but also revolved around the Sun? I could be wrong.

Yes. But they didn't wear togas.  :lol:

:lol:

Luna

Quote from: Donald Coyote on April 12, 2011, 01:45:31 PM
Quote from: Luna on April 12, 2011, 12:00:03 PM
There was a book I read when I was a kid...  I'm going to have to track it down, somehow...  Was about a bunch of kids stuffed into an experiment...  "House of Stairs," maybe?  Pretty much the same thing as the pigeons, the food pellets dropping was what conditioned behavior...

ETA:

http://www.amazon.com/House-Stairs-William-Sleator/dp/0140345809/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302609506&sr=8-1

Yeah, that's it...

The pigeon thing made me flash back to that book.


I don't think I've ever actually run into anyone else who's recognized that book.  I'd love to know who put the damn thing in an elementary school library, it freaked me out.  I haven't read it since then... but I still remember it.
Death-dealing hormone freak of deliciousness
Pagan-Stomping Valkyrie of the Interbutts™
Rampaging Slayer of Shit-Fountain Habitues

"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement."

Quote from: The Payne on November 16, 2011, 07:08:55 PM
If Luna was a furry, she'd sex humans and scream "BEASTIALITY!" at the top of her lungs at inopportune times.

Quote from: Nigel on March 24, 2011, 01:54:48 AM
I like the Luna one. She is a good one.

Quote
"Stop talking to yourself.  You don't like you any better than anyone else who knows you."

Wyldkat

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on April 12, 2011, 05:33:28 AM

Really? Didn't like those toga wearing dudes with the fixation on little boys have an understanding that the world was both round but also revolved around the Sun? I could be wrong.

There was a debate between the two models. The Heliocentric model lost cause it couldn't predict where the planets would be at anyone time. Aristarchus was one of the more famous proponents, also the ancient Indians (Hindus) played with the idea as well. But it went back it forth with the Heliocentric model only slowly gaining more predictable value by the time of Kepler and his laws of planetary motions. Even after Newton there was still some geocentric support. It wasn't completely resolved until Bessel.
But it had to do with what model was better at predicting the motion of planets at anyone time. Of course religion and politics got involved as well.

See even though those astronomy classes where 3 hours long and started at 8:00 pm I didn't completely sleep through them.
[/quote]

Exactly.

Quote from: Doktor Phox on April 12, 2011, 12:47:48 PM
Protip: Do never invoke shamanism/religion/superstitious fuckery in scientific discussions.

Seeing as the topic was psychology and in all the research I have done, it plays a key role in the position and actions of most if not all leaders of people, religious or otherwise, I don't see how it isn't relevant.  I'm not talking spells or any of that stuff, I'm talking about the ability of people to manipulate knowledge of psychology to further their goals as leaders.  It's been a part of leadership since the dawn of humans and for most of human history the majority of  leadership roles were directly related to religion, many leaders even being seen by the people as deities themselves.  If that is not the ultimate sign of understanding how to manipulate people, I don't know what is.

LMNO

Wyld, I'm not sure you're aware of this, but you're speaking on so many different levels that the different points you're trying to make are all mixing together into one big mess of contradiction, conflation, and correlation.

You might want to take a step back and re-think the various aspects of your argument and try again.

Mangrove

Quote from: Doktor Phox on April 12, 2011, 03:41:43 AM
I have never "UNG'd" before.


I found this both comic & tragic at the same time.

I too have never UNNNNNG'd a post either....[sigh]
What makes it so? Making it so is what makes it so.

Wyldkat

Quote from: LMNO, PhD on April 12, 2011, 05:35:43 PM
Wyld, I'm not sure you're aware of this, but you're speaking on so many different levels that the different points you're trying to make are all mixing together into one big mess of contradiction, conflation, and correlation.

You might want to take a step back and re-think the various aspects of your argument and try again.

Not a bad idea.  Two nights of almost no sleep have got to be worse than one for thought cohesion...  I can tell it's not coming across as clearly as I'd like.

Thurnez Isa

Quote from: Mangrove on April 12, 2011, 05:49:02 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on April 12, 2011, 03:41:43 AM
I have never "UNG'd" before.


I found this both comic & tragic at the same time.

I too have never UNNNNNG'd a post either....[sigh]



Here I'll help...



I THINK ALL IMPORTANT DECISIONS SHOULD ONLY BE MADE AFTER CHANNELING THE MAGICK RELEASED THROUGH THE POWER OF KABBALAH!!!!... and Mangrove has a stupid nose
/
/
:nigel:
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.

Dante

Phox


Lord Cataplanga

Manipulation is more of a proto-science, like alchemy, or psychoanalysis.