Fuck you, it's another Osama thread.

[Adios]

Ah.  I see.  Stop thinking, and revel in the vengance.

What have they DONE to you, LMNO?

It was the first half that concerns me more.  To ignore everything except the body in the arena.  To disregard the waste of life, the desecration of liberty, and the massive debts that led us to the killing of one man.  To feel that shooting him in the head is a proper definition of "justice".  To wallow in his death which, as far as most of the discussions on this board indicate, he simply ceases to exist, no eternal hellfires or final judgements.



Damn.  I told myself I wasn't going to go there, on behalf of those personally affected by WTC.  Which is why I backed off yesterday.  

Sorry, everyone.  

My very first thought was "How can I trust that the government is telling me the truth?"

Then I shifted to Trillions of dollars and thousands of US soldiers have either lost their lives, been mangled physically and even worse mentally.

Then I shifted to all the years spent chasing one man across three countries.

Then I was W00T! THE BASTARD IS DEAD!

From there on out I suffered severe confusion about exactly what I should be feeling.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

One of the thoughts that I had was that the crowds of people chanting USA were singing a familiar song, but forgetting the "death to the..." part and the flag burning part. I guess I had the same feeling that Nigel and LMNO had.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If this guy was a common criminal and could have been taken alive, then yeah... shooting in the head is not justice.

However, this is a person who raised/inspired an army and declared war on a sovereign nation. Further, had he been captured alive, his followers may have done all sorts of terrible things to try to get him freed. Finally, assuming that the orders from the President clearly said 'surrender or die'... then I think it is a just and justifiable end for him.

Of course, I would have preferred to see this happen 10 years ago without the loss of blood and treasure. It didn't happen that way though.

I don't think ANYBODY argues that it's not a just end for him. NOBODY HAS EVEN VAGUELY HINTED AT THAT. That is not what this is about.

LMNO said that it wasn't justice. I pointed out that I felt it was justified and just (and certainly in some sense, justice).

That is a gross and vile oversimplification of what he actually said... I'm disappointed in you.

[Cain]

I think I've already noted that when I started hearing the chanting of "USA! USA!", I got this sinking feeling in my stomach.

Sometimes, I hate being right.

I have been trying assiduously to avoid the coverage. Not actually hard but I accidentaly saw a bit on a web site yesterday. The thing which struck me forcibly was that the whoop de doop /ding dong the witch is dead crowd were almost uniformly too young to have been out of grade school when 9/11 happened. I wonder what effect this vicarious victory is going to have on their "americanness". Luckily I will be long dead by then but I should be very interested to see what that impact is longterm on American policy and pride in say, 50 yrs. For what its worth I don't anticipate it will be  a terribly good thing in the long term.

Apparently, lots of kids don't know who Bin Laden is

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-kids-are-not-all-right/2011/05/03/AFIQHLnF_blog.html

Or a bunch of kids just trolled the WaPo via Twitter, which is the interpretation I'm leaning towards.

[Cain]

Well... I'm not really sure what other scenario we would want...

CIA: DOOD we think we found OSama!

Smiler: Let's plan a strike to take him alive or kill him.

-VS-

Smiler: Meh, it would only be a symbolic victory. Let's ignore him.

Personally, I prefer the first one.

Oh, so we're going with the "yeah, what is your plan?" defence so soon?  Never mind no-one actually said "well Obama should have done nothing".  Nice strawman there, I'll throw them on the pile with the rest of the bullshit I've had to put up with for the past week.

[Cain]

This makes no difference to anything.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

[Cain]

Let's not ignore the cache of information they found in the compound. Who knows what was in there.

I would actually say that is far more significant than Bin Laden's death.

[Cain]

Yeah, it's pase'. It's so mainstream, man. We hear so much about the fact that 3,000 Americans died on 9/11 that we're desensitized to the fact that it happened. Besides, it's what They want us to worry about. Fuck those 3,000 people, right? They don't deserve revenge. Those assholes had it coming. They should have stayed at home that day. The fact that the guy who planned, organized, and financed their demise is dead? Eh, who cares, it's just a political show.

Not like anybody misses those people. Not like anybody cares. Right?

No, fuck you for implying that it my position.  You have no fucking idea what I have been through or what I think.  How dare you use the deaths of innocent people as a prop for attacking others in an internet argument.  How fucking low are you? 

You're scum.  Pure and simple.

[Cain]

Oh, so you're saying that people whose automatic gut reaction to Bin Laden's death was apprehension, along the lines of "Shit went down, what's going to happen now", are wrong? Or that they don't exist?

Or that those of us who are wary that the energy of jubilation over his death will be too easily transmogrified into domestic terrorism in the form of attacks on Muslims in the US? Or that it will escalate a rift between American Muslims and Christians?

Yeah, I guess that if my first emotion was apprehension, I'm not really American. And HOW DARE anyone talk about it and risk dampening the joy of the people dancing in the street.

Not only that, we're apparently desecrating the dead, too.

Vex, of course, intimately knowing all of the victims of terrorism of the Al-Qaeda network and being in a position to speak on their behalf.

[Cain]

No.

In fact, I never mentioned Cain and in fact he was the farthest thing from my mind when I said it.

Bullshit.  You didn't have to name me - you just described my reaction then followed it up with ad hominem attacks

As the educated, mature, and rational among us are quick to point out that Osama bin Laden's death amounts to no more than a "symbolic" victory...

But, lest these over-thinking blowhards carry the day

News like this is rare these days, and you shouldn't let some asshole with a Ph.D. take it away from you, just because he or she knows more than you do. Bullshit. You know what I know?

Even if this is a "hollow, symbolic" victory, I can say fuck you, it's a victory of some kind....Don't let the Realists talk you out of enjoying it while you can.

Are you really suggesting none of these were references to me at all?  Apparently the only reason I haven't been given shit so far is that as a non-American I am "excused"....never mind Bin Laden's attacks on Australians and Britons.  Maybe they just don't count?

It was referring to the shit that get said on TV in a similar vain. I know Cain isn't a blowhard.

No, apparently I just say stuff in a similar vein to them.  Which presumably makes me a demi-blowhard, or something similar.  Save your hairsplitting for someone who gives a shit, you backpedalling liar.

But my point still stands, which originally garnered a BOO YAH from the good Reverend until he found a reason to take issue with it, that people shouldn't get all intellectual about it, just because there are valid intellectual concerns, to the point of forfeiting what feeling of victory they might, however temporarily or illogically, feel in connection to this event.

What victory?  Go on, explain this victory.  Oh, wait, you already said, it's "symbolic", right?  Sorry.  I live in a world where material capabilities trump peoples feelings every day of the week.

You are so full of shit it is unbelievable.

[Cain]

I must be a BadAmerican™ because my first thought was "Too Little, Too Late."  

Of course it's too little, too late. Everything would be too little too late, including a precise excision of every last extremist of every kind from the human gene pool. Nothing can erase what has happened, in this country or in any other country as a result of it. It's all too little, too late. It's a big festering sore and nobody's doing anything to clean it out, I got it.

All I am saying is, fuck yeah, that asshole deserved it.

I agree with this sentiment.

Killing some asshole won't change anything, except there's now one less asshole. I can enjoy that. Is Obama obviously spinning this for his own gain? Of course. Will some Americans act like ass hats, of course. Will terrorists use it as another excuse to do bad shit? Sure.

However, the US had the choice of going in to get him, or leaving him to continue whatever the hell he was doing. Out of the two options, I approve of the former.

Stop dryhumping that strawman, for the love of God.  Or at least get a room.

[Cain]

If this guy was a common criminal and could have been taken alive, then yeah... shooting in the head is not justice.

However, this is a person who raised/inspired an army and declared war on a sovereign nation. Further, had he been captured alive, his followers may have done all sorts of terrible things to try to get him freed. Finally, assuming that the orders from the President clearly said 'surrender or die'... then I think it is a just and justifiable end for him.

Of course, I would have preferred to see this happen 10 years ago without the loss of blood and treasure. It didn't happen that way though.

Oh look, it's an entire platoon of strawmen!

Just after Bin Laden was killed, the Mexican drug cartel leader Benjamin Arrellano Felix was extradited to the US to stand trial.  He ran a large, well organized cartel in Tijuana which brings the drugs over the border into the states.  He has ordered children raped and killed in front of their parents, and people to be skinned and their bodies dumped in the streets.  He's richer than Bin Laden, probably just as well connected and has fought Mexican soldiers and paramilitaries, the armed forces of an allied government of the United States. 

And yet, he was caught alive.  And he faces a civilian trial.  Why?  Because he's a criminal.  Just like Bin Laden.

His followers may attempt to free him.  Those fighting on the side of the Cartels in Mexico include highly trained former SWAT team members and Special Forces who have swapped sides - people far more skilled than the average Al-Qaeda terrorist. 

Yet he is still on trial.

To say "Bin Laden" declared war on the USA is nonsense.  Only countries can decare war.  Bin Laden isn't a country.  And he doesn't control one.  In fact, even the weakest and most despised government is far more powerful than anything Bin Laden can bring to bear.  And war criminals get tried all the time.

Come back with some better strawmen.  These ones are looking weak.

[Cain]

If this guy was a common criminal and could have been taken alive, then yeah... shooting in the head is not justice.

However, this is a person who raised/inspired an army and declared war on a sovereign nation. Further, had he been captured alive, his followers may have done all sorts of terrible things to try to get him freed. Finally, assuming that the orders from the President clearly said 'surrender or die'... then I think it is a just and justifiable end for him.

Of course, I would have preferred to see this happen 10 years ago without the loss of blood and treasure. It didn't happen that way though.

I don't think ANYBODY argues that it's not a just end for him. NOBODY HAS EVEN VAGUELY HINTED AT THAT. That is not what this is about.

LMNO said that it wasn't justice. I pointed out that I felt it was justified and just (and certainly in some sense, justice).

That is a gross and vile oversimplification of what he actually said... I'm disappointed in you.

Ratatosk has been grossly simplifying everyone who disagrees with him since this started.

But he's still better than Vex.

[LMNO]

If this guy was a common criminal and could have been taken alive, then yeah... shooting in the head is not justice.

However, this is a person who raised/inspired an army and declared war on a sovereign nation. Further, had he been captured alive, his followers may have done all sorts of terrible things to try to get him freed. Finally, assuming that the orders from the President clearly said 'surrender or die'... then I think it is a just and justifiable end for him.

Of course, I would have preferred to see this happen 10 years ago without the loss of blood and treasure. It didn't happen that way though.

Oh look, it's an entire platoon of strawmen!

Just after Bin Laden was killed, the Mexican drug cartel leader Benjamin Arrellano Felix was extradited to the US to stand trial.  He ran a large, well organized cartel in Tijuana which brings the drugs over the border into the states.  He has ordered children raped and killed in front of their parents, and people to be skinned and their bodies dumped in the streets.  He's richer than Bin Laden, probably just as well connected and has fought Mexican soldiers and paramilitaries, the armed forces of an allied government of the United States. 

And yet, he was caught alive.  And he faces a civilian trial.  Why?  Because he's a criminal.  Just like Bin Laden.

His followers may attempt to free him.  Those fighting on the side of the Cartels in Mexico include highly trained former SWAT team members and Special Forces who have swapped sides - people far more skilled than the average Al-Qaeda terrorist. 

Yet he is still on trial.

To say "Bin Laden" declared war on the USA is nonsense.  Only countries can decare war.  Bin Laden isn't a country.  And he doesn't control one.  In fact, even the weakest and most despised government is far more powerful than anything Bin Laden can bring to bear.  And war criminals get tried all the time.

Come back with some better strawmen.  These ones are looking weak.

I just got barstooled by Cain, even though he was responding to Rat.  Surprisingly, it's a good feeling.

I had totally forgotten that after 9/11, a strong argument was made to treat it like a criminal act, rather than a declaration of war, for precisely the reasons Cain mentioned.  I suppose that after ten years of repetition that we're "at war with Terror", I had unknowingly realigned to follow that narrative.

Many thanks to Cain, for reminding me of this simple fact: Bin Laden was a criminal, not a head of state.

[Placid Dingo]

I think I've already noted that when I started hearing the chanting of "USA! USA!", I got this sinking feeling in my stomach.

Sometimes, I hate being right.

I have been trying assiduously to avoid the coverage. Not actually hard but I accidentaly saw a bit on a web site yesterday. The thing which struck me forcibly was that the whoop de doop /ding dong the witch is dead crowd were almost uniformly too young to have been out of grade school when 9/11 happened. I wonder what effect this vicarious victory is going to have on their "americanness". Luckily I will be long dead by then but I should be very interested to see what that impact is longterm on American policy and pride in say, 50 yrs. For what its worth I don't anticipate it will be  a terribly good thing in the long term.

Apparently, lots of kids don't know who Bin Laden is

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-kids-are-not-all-right/2011/05/03/AFIQHLnF_blog.html

Or a bunch of kids just trolled the WaPo via Twitter, which is the interpretation I'm leaning towards.

Anyone under 15 seems to have pretty much no clue. I teach 11, 12 year olds and some knew he 'flew a plane into a building' but that was about it.

That said, obviously Australia cares less, somewhat.