Fuck you, it's another Osama thread.

[Luna]

It is so comforting to realize on a regular basis that I am surround by fuckers as sick as me.

Thanks...  I think...   

[LMNO]

And of course, on that fateful day in September, they reached the Number 1 spot with....









.....

















...Wait for it....











































"It's Raining Men"

[Cain]

Those kids are so trollin'. The dead giveaway was the "was he in a band too?" guy. The sad thing is that the people at the Washington Post are so out of the loop that they don't get it.

Ezra Klein is not so hip with the internets.  In fact, the best words to describe him would be "dry policy wonk who probably irons his socks and alphabetically arranges his favourite Star Trek episodes".

What is more astounding is that the rest of the internet is aware of this, yet pretending not to be and nodded their heads Seriously while pontificating about how bad this is, because Ezra Klein is a Serious Liberal Journalist.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If this guy was a common criminal and could have been taken alive, then yeah... shooting in the head is not justice.

However, this is a person who raised/inspired an army and declared war on a sovereign nation. Further, had he been captured alive, his followers may have done all sorts of terrible things to try to get him freed. Finally, assuming that the orders from the President clearly said 'surrender or die'... then I think it is a just and justifiable end for him.

Of course, I would have preferred to see this happen 10 years ago without the loss of blood and treasure. It didn't happen that way though.

Oh look, it's an entire platoon of strawmen!

Just after Bin Laden was killed, the Mexican drug cartel leader Benjamin Arrellano Felix was extradited to the US to stand trial.  He ran a large, well organized cartel in Tijuana which brings the drugs over the border into the states.  He has ordered children raped and killed in front of their parents, and people to be skinned and their bodies dumped in the streets.  He's richer than Bin Laden, probably just as well connected and has fought Mexican soldiers and paramilitaries, the armed forces of an allied government of the United States. 

And yet, he was caught alive.  And he faces a civilian trial.  Why?  Because he's a criminal.  Just like Bin Laden.

His followers may attempt to free him.  Those fighting on the side of the Cartels in Mexico include highly trained former SWAT team members and Special Forces who have swapped sides - people far more skilled than the average Al-Qaeda terrorist. 

Yet he is still on trial.

To say "Bin Laden" declared war on the USA is nonsense.  Only countries can decare war.  Bin Laden isn't a country.  And he doesn't control one.  In fact, even the weakest and most despised government is far more powerful than anything Bin Laden can bring to bear.  And war criminals get tried all the time.

Come back with some better strawmen.  These ones are looking weak.

I'm so glad you're back, Cain.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

And of course, on that fateful day in September, they reached the Number 1 spot with....









.....

















...Wait for it....











































"It's Raining Men"

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If this guy was a common criminal and could have been taken alive, then yeah... shooting in the head is not justice.

However, this is a person who raised/inspired an army and declared war on a sovereign nation. Further, had he been captured alive, his followers may have done all sorts of terrible things to try to get him freed. Finally, assuming that the orders from the President clearly said 'surrender or die'... then I think it is a just and justifiable end for him.

Of course, I would have preferred to see this happen 10 years ago without the loss of blood and treasure. It didn't happen that way though.

Oh look, it's an entire platoon of strawmen!

Just after Bin Laden was killed, the Mexican drug cartel leader Benjamin Arrellano Felix was extradited to the US to stand trial.  He ran a large, well organized cartel in Tijuana which brings the drugs over the border into the states.  He has ordered children raped and killed in front of their parents, and people to be skinned and their bodies dumped in the streets.  He's richer than Bin Laden, probably just as well connected and has fought Mexican soldiers and paramilitaries, the armed forces of an allied government of the United States. 

And yet, he was caught alive.  And he faces a civilian trial.  Why?  Because he's a criminal.  Just like Bin Laden.

His followers may attempt to free him.  Those fighting on the side of the Cartels in Mexico include highly trained former SWAT team members and Special Forces who have swapped sides - people far more skilled than the average Al-Qaeda terrorist. 

Yet he is still on trial.

To say "Bin Laden" declared war on the USA is nonsense.  Only countries can decare war.  Bin Laden isn't a country.  And he doesn't control one.  In fact, even the weakest and most despised government is far more powerful than anything Bin Laden can bring to bear.  And war criminals get tried all the time.

Come back with some better strawmen.  These ones are looking weak.

So because the US successfully captured one guy, its not just that they successfully killed another?

If they had captured OBL and made him stand trial, I wouldn't have had a problem with that... though in fact if they had shot the drug cartel leader in the head, I wouldn't have had a problem with that.

Justice by the courts is preferable, but it is not the only form of justice, or justified response, in my opinion.

[Pope Lecherous]

So because the US successfully captured one guy, its not just that they successfully killed another?

If they had captured OBL and made him stand trial, I wouldn't have had a problem with that... though in fact if they had shot the drug cartel leader in the head, I wouldn't have had a problem with that.

Justice by the courts is preferable, but it is not the only form of justice, or justified response, in my opinion.

Like was pointed out, he is a criminal.  What would be the prupose of bringing him to court?  To put him up as some warlord or enemy general?  It would only be a circus.  The moral grand-standing and lip service paid to justice and so forth by the US is so old.  That Osama was just executed on the spot was a massive relief... a relief i didnt know i would feel in that the rotting, festering mask of lies and hypocrisy slipped, even if only for the convenience of the government.

[Freeky]

If this guy was a common criminal and could have been taken alive, then yeah... shooting in the head is not justice.

However, this is a person who raised/inspired an army and declared war on a sovereign nation. Further, had he been captured alive, his followers may have done all sorts of terrible things to try to get him freed. Finally, assuming that the orders from the President clearly said 'surrender or die'... then I think it is a just and justifiable end for him.

Of course, I would have preferred to see this happen 10 years ago without the loss of blood and treasure. It didn't happen that way though.

Oh look, it's an entire platoon of strawmen!

Just after Bin Laden was killed, the Mexican drug cartel leader Benjamin Arrellano Felix was extradited to the US to stand trial.  He ran a large, well organized cartel in Tijuana which brings the drugs over the border into the states.  He has ordered children raped and killed in front of their parents, and people to be skinned and their bodies dumped in the streets.  He's richer than Bin Laden, probably just as well connected and has fought Mexican soldiers and paramilitaries, the armed forces of an allied government of the United States. 

And yet, he was caught alive.  And he faces a civilian trial.  Why?  Because he's a criminal.  Just like Bin Laden.

His followers may attempt to free him.  Those fighting on the side of the Cartels in Mexico include highly trained former SWAT team members and Special Forces who have swapped sides - people far more skilled than the average Al-Qaeda terrorist. 

Yet he is still on trial.

To say "Bin Laden" declared war on the USA is nonsense.  Only countries can decare war.  Bin Laden isn't a country.  And he doesn't control one.  In fact, even the weakest and most despised government is far more powerful than anything Bin Laden can bring to bear.  And war criminals get tried all the time.

Come back with some better strawmen.  These ones are looking weak.

I'm so glad you're back, Cain.

Ditto, I missed Cain and all his glorious takes on politics and other things.

[Luna]

There would be one MAJOR problem with bringing Osama to trial.

Where the fuck would you find a venue where his lawyer couldn't argue that there's no way he could get a fair trial?

[Jasper]

Singapore?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So because the US successfully captured one guy, its not just that they successfully killed another?

If they had captured OBL and made him stand trial, I wouldn't have had a problem with that... though in fact if they had shot the drug cartel leader in the head, I wouldn't have had a problem with that.

Justice by the courts is preferable, but it is not the only form of justice, or justified response, in my opinion.

Like was pointed out, he is a criminal.  What would be the prupose of bringing him to court?  To put him up as some warlord or enemy general?  It would only be a circus.  The moral grand-standing and lip service paid to justice and so forth by the US is so old.  That Osama was just executed on the spot was a massive relief... a relief i didnt know i would feel in that the rotting, festering mask of lies and hypocrisy slipped, even if only for the convenience of the government.

Osama Bin Ladin was a mad dog.  I cannot justify an outright assassination (as this was), but in this one case, I really don't care.  This is a strange feeling for me, as I practically worship the rule of law.

But there it is, right?  He's dead, and I'm glad.  I'd have given the order myself, and then slept like a baby.

[Thurnez Isa]

A trail would have at least realistically let you control your own propaganda rather then leave it to fate. I'm beginning to see it wouldn't have been popular stateside but it would have meant more for your international standing, especially in places where it matters.

As for Blackfoots comment - They put Nazis on trial.
Except the ones that killed themselves to avoid it. Perhaps trial is a worse punishment.

So if this is an assassination, we've went to putting perpetrators of genocide on trail to outright assassination in a foreign country.
Yes I know the trails there where a circus and many of the allies had down things just as bad or worse in the case of Stalin, and no Im not going to cry over Osama

But that is not all.

Think of all the drone attacks, the hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, the wars, the executions, and all the nastiness done to get to this point, and that will continue on pass this and probably just escalate. The mythology being build here is far darker then just the killing of the money man for a terrorist organization. Maybe that is what really is not sitting well with me. The killing seems like putting a picture frame on a bloody wall.
I'm starting to feel like Marlow looking down the river.

[Phox]

A trail would have at least realistically let you control your own propaganda rather then leave it to fate. I'm beginning to see it wouldn't have been popular stateside but it would have meant more for your international standing, especially in places where it matters.

As for Blackfoots comment - They put Nazis on trial.
Except the ones that killed themselves to avoid it. Perhaps trial is a worse punishment.

So if this is an assassination, we've went to putting perpetrators of genocide on trail to outright assassination in a foreign country.
Yes I know the trails there where a circus and many of the allies had down things just as bad or worse in the case of Stalin, and no Im not going to cry over Osama

But that is not all.

Think of all the drone attacks, the hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, the wars, the executions, and all the nastiness done to get to this point, and that will continue on pass this and probably just escalate. The mythology being build here is far darker then just the killing of the money man for a terrorist organization. Maybe that is what really is not sitting well with me. The killing seems like putting a picture frame on a bloody wall.
I'm starting to feel like Marlow looking down the river.

Fair points, I think. And this outcome is just as much of a circus as a trial would have been. Look at the reaction it got.

[Pope Lecherous]

A trail would have at least realistically let you control your own propaganda rather then leave it to fate. I'm beginning to see it wouldn't have been popular stateside but it would have meant more for your international standing, especially in places where it matters.

As for Blackfoots comment - They put Nazis on trial.
Except the ones that killed themselves to avoid it. Perhaps trial is a worse punishment.

So if this is an assassination, we've went to putting perpetrators of genocide on trail to outright assassination in a foreign country.
Yes I know the trails there where a circus and many of the allies had down things just as bad or worse in the case of Stalin, and no Im not going to cry over Osama

But that is not all.

Think of all the drone attacks, the hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, the wars, the executions, and all the nastiness done to get to this point, and that will continue on pass this and probably just escalate. The mythology being build here is far darker then just the killing of the money man for a terrorist organization. Maybe that is what really is not sitting well with me. The killing seems like putting a picture frame on a bloody wall.
I'm starting to feel like Marlow looking down the river.

It is for these very feelings you are having that a trial is NOT what is ideal for the international standing of the United States.  It raises several questions such as; On what authority does the US do whatever the fuck it wants?  How does a nation of laws and values endorse assassination and the much shadier behavior leading up to Bin Laden's death (or hypothetical trial)?  Not to mention the severe costs you mentioned above.  Not to mention the world's eye on a trial with one possible verdict-Death- and the corresponding mockery it makes of a fair trial system.  The endless detention without official charges that would ensue as lawyers prepare a "case" while the fanatic is bled dry of any information he may have, by ethically dubious means.  Certainly, the issue will transform into how we treat the man and the millions of other things while his actions and involvement are laid to the wayside.

I know Cain or others more politically savvy can imagine a host of other issues i havent considered within 30 seconds in recepit of your post.  It never ends

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I know it sounds like the ramblings of a crazy woman, but there was once a time when it was a point of pride that America was a nation that would give flagrantly self-confessed war criminals a fair trial.

But that America is long dead.