Keeping a kid's gender secret...

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, the very existence of the terms "trans" and "genderqueer" are based on the existence of sex-linked gender roles, which these parents are reinforcing.

Transexualism is actually a physical condition.  Trans people have hormone receptors in their brains that match the other sex.  They don't just identify as the other gender, they actually have the brain of the other sex (in many cases, not all)

I'm sorry, I think it's bullshit.

There's a fair amount of science backing it up.

I can link papers if you want but they tend to be pretty dry.

The physical brain structure is actually different between men and women and trans people have brains that are more similar to their identified sex than the sex indicated by their genitals.

Right, but in biological anthropology you have to be careful about attributing differences to brain structure, because brain structure is highly mutable. The brains of people who were abused as children, for instance, are different from the brains of those who weren't. Using the logic you appear to be using, that would mean that the children caused themselves to be abused by virtue of having the brain structure of someone who is abused.

Right?

I don't believe that the brain structure of the transgendered person doesn't match their bodies. In fact, I think that's so absurdly stupid an assertion as to belong in the same realm as otherkin. I think, with my brain that is part of my body, that we have assigned sex to gender, and are falsely imposing the expectation that a person with a perfectly normal healthy body must "really" be the other sex because they "think like" the other sex. That's gender role imposition.

WE CREATED THE PROBLEM. The body didn't create the problem. The solution is not to use technology to resolve the dissonance, the solution is to remove the dissonance by dissolving the artificial assignments of "gender".

Maybe,  It's a lot easier to give someone hormone therapy than to change society and the portrayal of gender though.

Without hormone therapy trans people tend to depression, due to the mismatch with hormone receptors, with hormone therapy the incidence of depression is greatly reduced.

well, is it just a teensy weensy bit possible that the depression is a side effect of "social norm" pressures?

If it were caused by social pressure then the hormone therapy wouldn't fix it.  Trans people on hormones are still trans, especcially M2F, without reconstructive surgery they generally don't look all that feminine.

That's simply not  true. Aaaaagh. I can't even... I don't know where to start. Um. How about, chemical depression that is caused by environmental pressures responds to chemical treatment, but is only fully resolved by removal of the causative environmental pressures.

[BabylonHoruv]

How about we let people take hormones if they really want to, as no different than any other body modification, and at the SAME time, destroy gender categories completely? IT'S WIN WIN.

That's what I said.

It looks to me like Nigel and Charley are downing the hormone treatments, which while they may not be perfect they do save a large number of trans folks from depression and allow them to live much happier lives.

They're a medical treatment though, distinct from body mods like piericings, breast enhancement/reduction etc and whether or not they will work to reduce depression and other mental side effects of gender dysphoria is something best determined by a doctor.  

If you want to modify your body to look like the other gender, or like a dolphin for that matter it's just a matter of time and money, if you are going to tinker with your internal body chemistry it is probably a good idea to get medical advice so as to do it properly.

I did not assert that genital or facial surgery is harmful as in it shouldn't be done.  I am just saying it is major, painful, expensive surgery.  If you're trying to avoid doing physical harm to young people's bodies an arguement could be made against reconstructive surgery, the same arguement doesn't make any sense against hormone therapy.

I'm all in favor of trans folks being able to get their bodies reshaped to match their internal gender.  It's a major step in a way that hormone therapy is not however.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

How about we let people take hormones if they really want to, as no different than any other body modification, and at the SAME time, destroy gender categories completely? IT'S WIN WIN.

I don't want to stop people from taking hormone treatments. I want to destroy the social pressures that cause people to believe they need hormone treatments. I want to attack the problem, not the patches that people attempt to apply to it.

I DO want, as part of attacking the problem, to try to convince people not to do things that are destructive to their bodies or psyches, nor to do things that will compound their experience of marginalization. Like facial tattoos, and in some cases, hormone treatments. Every person who lives the life they want to live without succumbing to social pressure to "normalize" their body to fit social gender role expectations is a kind of freedom fighter, IMO.

[Adios]

How about we let people take hormones if they really want to, as no different than any other body modification, and at the SAME time, destroy gender categories completely? IT'S WIN WIN.

That's what I said.

It looks to me like Nigel and Charley are downing the hormone treatments, which while they may not be perfect they do save a large number of trans folks from depression and allow them to live much happier lives.

They're a medical treatment though, distinct from body mods like piericings, breast enhancement/reduction etc and whether or not they will work to reduce depression and other mental side effects of gender dysphoria is something best determined by a doctor.  

If you want to modify your body to look like the other gender, or like a dolphin for that matter it's just a matter of time and money, if you are going to tinker with your internal body chemistry it is probably a good idea to get medical advice so as to do it properly.

I did not assert that genital or facial surgery is harmful as in it shouldn't be done.  I am just saying it is major, painful, expensive surgery.  If you're trying to avoid doing physical harm to young people's bodies an arguement could be made against reconstructive surgery, the same arguement doesn't make any sense against hormone therapy.

I'm all in favor of trans folks being able to get their bodies reshaped to match their internal gender.  It's a major step in a way that hormone therapy is not however.

I had a reply all worked out, but what Nigel said.

[Kai]

Here's something I've noticed that ties in to your statement, Nigel.

In isolation (away from other trans/queer people), genderweird people tend to be much more fluid and uncategorized with their identification. When that changes, when they move into a more social environment with other queers, their identification becomes more contained. Why? Social pressure from other queers! People who previously didn't feel a need for any sort of medical intervention feel compelled towards that direction, because that's considered to be the socially acceptable choice, and in their need to fit in they feel themselves needing it too. And this just continues in a cycle of putting amazingly diverse queers into little gender boxes. Now, if there wasn't any such thing as social gender pressures these people would probably never have felt the need. And if they did, it would be a personal choice rather than a social pressure. Garrrgh.

Edit: speaking all this from personal experience, mistakes, and discovery.

[BabylonHoruv]

To tie all this together.

What these Scandinavian whackjobs are trying to do is serve as a model for how to eliminate societal gender pressures.

They're doing it wrong.

How might it be done right?

[Adios]

To tie all this together.

What these Scandinavian whackjobs are trying to do is serve as a model for how to eliminate societal gender pressures.

They're doing it wrong.

How might it be done right?

By simply respecting the individualism of individuals.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Here's something I've noticed that ties in to your statement, Nigel.

In isolation (away from other trans/queer people), genderweird people tend to be much more fluid and uncategorized with their identification. When that changes, when they move into a more social environment with other queers, their identification becomes more contained. Why? Social pressure from other queers! People who previously didn't feel a need for any sort of medical intervention feel compelled towards that direction, because that's considered to be the socially acceptable choice, and in their need to fit in they feel themselves needing it too. And this just continues in a cycle of putting amazingly diverse queers into little gender boxes. Now, if there wasn't any such thing as social gender pressures these people would probably never have felt the need. And if they did, it would be a personal choice rather than a social pressure. Garrrgh.

Edit: speaking all this from personal experience, mistakes, and discovery.

Thank you for pointing this out! I have noticed the same thing in my local queer community... and it sucks when the community you turn to for acceptance, support and understanding tries to push you into a little box.

I don't think most people don't understand how promoting the concept of genderism, including transgenderism, reinforces sexism and sexist stereotypes. For example, a man seeking sex change surgery (euphemistically, and incorrectly, also called "gender reassignment surgery", as if a surgical procedure alters your gender) must live for a year "as a woman". Whoa... hold on. What the fuck does that even mean?

Better yet, who decides what it means?

[Zenpeanut]

I normally don't get into these huge debates, but speaking as someone who is trans, hormone therapy is NOT a harmless thing compared to facial or genital surgery. There can be major health complications due to hormones causing sweeping changes throughout the whole body. I'm personally really reluctant to go on hormones because the huge variety of side-effects caused by such including mood swings, a dead sex-drive, and risk of blood clotting.

Also, as was stated, hormone therapy isn't going to fix depression. Being comfortable with oneself and having a caring support network will. For example, I was often times depressed before I came out, and once I did come out and switched out my wardrobe for more feminine clothes and didn't lose any friends over it, I haven't felt depressed since. I really don't need hormone therapy at the moment.

[Luna]

I normally don't get into these huge debates, but speaking as someone who is trans, hormone therapy is NOT a harmless thing compared to facial or genital surgery. There can be major health complications due to hormones causing sweeping changes throughout the whole body. I'm personally really reluctant to go on hormones because the huge variety of side-effects caused by such including mood swings, a dead sex-drive, and risk of blood clotting.

Also, as was stated, hormone therapy isn't going to fix depression. Being comfortable with oneself and having a caring support network will. For example, I was often times depressed before I came out, and once I did come out and switched out my wardrobe for more feminine clothes and didn't lose any friends over it, I haven't felt depressed since. I really don't need hormone therapy at the moment.

Thanks for chiming in, personal experience always appreciated (by me, anyway).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I normally don't get into these huge debates, but speaking as someone who is trans, hormone therapy is NOT a harmless thing compared to facial or genital surgery. There can be major health complications due to hormones causing sweeping changes throughout the whole body. I'm personally really reluctant to go on hormones because the huge variety of side-effects caused by such including mood swings, a dead sex-drive, and risk of blood clotting.

Also, as was stated, hormone therapy isn't going to fix depression. Being comfortable with oneself and having a caring support network will. For example, I was often times depressed before I came out, and once I did come out and switched out my wardrobe for more feminine clothes and didn't lose any friends over it, I haven't felt depressed since. I really don't need hormone therapy at the moment.

Yes, this. I didn't bother busting out any science about the dangers of hormone treatment (I am reluctant to call it "therapy" in this case because I have much doubt that it is therapeutic) because the rest of that argument was already based on an interesting reinterpretation of science.

[Kai]

Here's something I've noticed that ties in to your statement, Nigel.

In isolation (away from other trans/queer people), genderweird people tend to be much more fluid and uncategorized with their identification. When that changes, when they move into a more social environment with other queers, their identification becomes more contained. Why? Social pressure from other queers! People who previously didn't feel a need for any sort of medical intervention feel compelled towards that direction, because that's considered to be the socially acceptable choice, and in their need to fit in they feel themselves needing it too. And this just continues in a cycle of putting amazingly diverse queers into little gender boxes. Now, if there wasn't any such thing as social gender pressures these people would probably never have felt the need. And if they did, it would be a personal choice rather than a social pressure. Garrrgh.

Edit: speaking all this from personal experience, mistakes, and discovery.

Thank you for pointing this out! I have noticed the same thing in my local queer community... and it sucks when the community you turn to for acceptance, support and understanding tries to push you into a little box.

I don't think most people don't understand how promoting the concept of genderism, including transgenderism, reinforces sexism and sexist stereotypes. For example, a man seeking sex change surgery (euphemistically, and incorrectly, also called "gender reassignment surgery", as if a surgical procedure alters your gender) must live for a year "as a woman". Whoa... hold on. What the fuck does that even mean?

Better yet, who decides what it means?

1) What it means is that a queer wishing to be accepted as female legally must present herself stereotypically as female for one year before "the gates will open". Not that this says anything about her family's acceptance, or her friends, or her workplace, or that shithead down the street.

2) The psychological community likes to talk about "that which is considered normal by society at large", but since there really is no normal, they tend to settle on "that which is normal by cultural stereotype" and "that which I see as normal". So, and yes, it's scary, medicine and the psychological community decide what gender means. Never mind it's a cultural construct, never mind that they often equate sex with gender.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Here's something I've noticed that ties in to your statement, Nigel.

In isolation (away from other trans/queer people), genderweird people tend to be much more fluid and uncategorized with their identification. When that changes, when they move into a more social environment with other queers, their identification becomes more contained. Why? Social pressure from other queers! People who previously didn't feel a need for any sort of medical intervention feel compelled towards that direction, because that's considered to be the socially acceptable choice, and in their need to fit in they feel themselves needing it too. And this just continues in a cycle of putting amazingly diverse queers into little gender boxes. Now, if there wasn't any such thing as social gender pressures these people would probably never have felt the need. And if they did, it would be a personal choice rather than a social pressure. Garrrgh.

Edit: speaking all this from personal experience, mistakes, and discovery.

Thank you for pointing this out! I have noticed the same thing in my local queer community... and it sucks when the community you turn to for acceptance, support and understanding tries to push you into a little box.

I don't think most people don't understand how promoting the concept of genderism, including transgenderism, reinforces sexism and sexist stereotypes. For example, a man seeking sex change surgery (euphemistically, and incorrectly, also called "gender reassignment surgery", as if a surgical procedure alters your gender) must live for a year "as a woman". Whoa... hold on. What the fuck does that even mean?

Better yet, who decides what it means?

1) What it means is that a queer wishing to be accepted as female legally must present herself stereotypically as female for one year before "the gates will open". Not that this says anything about her family's acceptance, or her friends, or her workplace, or that shithead down the street.

2) The psychological community likes to talk about "that which is considered normal by society at large", but since there really is no normal, they tend to settle on "that which is normal by cultural stereotype" and "that which I see as normal". So, and yes, it's scary, medicine and the psychological community decide what gender means. Never mind it's a cultural construct, never mind that they often equate sex with gender.

Yes, exactly. I like to frame those as questions in order to get people to actually think about it, and maybe even ask themselves whether they live up to these artificial gender standards that are defined in part by a community that exists to sell gender reassignment. I'm certain I don't, other than having long hair and occasionally wearing a skirt. But you nailed it: The medical and psychological community are defining gender roles and simultaneously conflating their invented roles with biological sex. And, there's money in it.

[Kai]

Here's something I've noticed that ties in to your statement, Nigel.

In isolation (away from other trans/queer people), genderweird people tend to be much more fluid and uncategorized with their identification. When that changes, when they move into a more social environment with other queers, their identification becomes more contained. Why? Social pressure from other queers! People who previously didn't feel a need for any sort of medical intervention feel compelled towards that direction, because that's considered to be the socially acceptable choice, and in their need to fit in they feel themselves needing it too. And this just continues in a cycle of putting amazingly diverse queers into little gender boxes. Now, if there wasn't any such thing as social gender pressures these people would probably never have felt the need. And if they did, it would be a personal choice rather than a social pressure. Garrrgh.

Edit: speaking all this from personal experience, mistakes, and discovery.

Thank you for pointing this out! I have noticed the same thing in my local queer community... and it sucks when the community you turn to for acceptance, support and understanding tries to push you into a little box.

I don't think most people don't understand how promoting the concept of genderism, including transgenderism, reinforces sexism and sexist stereotypes. For example, a man seeking sex change surgery (euphemistically, and incorrectly, also called "gender reassignment surgery", as if a surgical procedure alters your gender) must live for a year "as a woman". Whoa... hold on. What the fuck does that even mean?

Better yet, who decides what it means?

1) What it means is that a queer wishing to be accepted as female legally must present herself stereotypically as female for one year before "the gates will open". Not that this says anything about her family's acceptance, or her friends, or her workplace, or that shithead down the street.

2) The psychological community likes to talk about "that which is considered normal by society at large", but since there really is no normal, they tend to settle on "that which is normal by cultural stereotype" and "that which I see as normal". So, and yes, it's scary, medicine and the psychological community decide what gender means. Never mind it's a cultural construct, never mind that they often equate sex with gender.

Yes, exactly. I like to frame those as questions in order to get people to actually think about it, and maybe even ask themselves whether they live up to these artificial gender standards that are defined in part by a community that exists to sell gender reassignment. I'm certain I don't, other than having long hair and occasionally wearing a skirt. But you nailed it: The medical and psychological community are defining gender roles and simultaneously conflating their invented roles with biological sex. And, there's money in it.

There definitely is. Surgical operations on breast and genital tissue are very expensive, as are lifetime prescriptions of various hormones and required psychiatric visits. And that's not including all the other things queers will do, like facial surgery, laser depiliation, and clothing/cosmetics. I refuse to fall into that bullshit. I refuse to jump through their hoops for their bullshit ideas.

[Luna]

Call me crazy... but I always kinda figured that there were things more important about a person than what clothes they like to wear, what other consenting adult (or adults) they want to rub body parts against, or what body parts they were dealt at birth.

Maybe if there was more of THAT idea floating around, the rest of the arguments here would matter a fuckload less.