Ron Paul

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

So having read that, I get quite a chill watching all these people cheering for the death penalty...

I'm cheering for the execution of Lawrence Russell Brewer, one of the three white supremists who dragged James Byrd Jr. to death.

<- That's me.

I just wish it was done with one of those old-fangled nasty contraptions rather than lethal injection.

Yes, emotionally-driven things like this are the best way to run a nation.

In the case of murderous racists, it is quite appropriate.

White supremacists are lethal and extremely well organized in prisons, moreso than they are on the outside.

[East Coast Hustle]

There is absolutely no argument to be made that the death penalty as administered by the state has any moral virtue.

I'm all for vigilante justice or for throwing the real (and confessed) sickos in GP and letting things work themselves out, but the state has NO FUCKING BUSINESS administering a death sentence to its citizens.

Especially when it can't even be bothered to make sure they're not innocent first. Better a million guilty men go free than one innocent man be hanged and all of that.

[Doktor Howl]

So having read that, I get quite a chill watching all these people cheering for the death penalty...

I'm cheering for the execution of Lawrence Russell Brewer, one of the three white supremists who dragged James Byrd Jr. to death.

<- That's me.

I just wish it was done with one of those old-fangled nasty contraptions rather than lethal injection.

Yes, emotionally-driven things like this are the best way to run a nation.

In the case of murderous racists, it is quite appropriate.

White supremacists are lethal and extremely well organized in prisons, moreso than they are on the outside.

Sure.  And it's okay if you occasionally kill the wrong guy, because your outrage will let you sleep at night.

[Doktor Howl]

There is absolutely no argument to be made that the death penalty as administered by the state has any moral virtue.

I'm all for vigilante justice or for throwing the real (and confessed) sickos in GP and letting things work themselves out, but the state has NO FUCKING BUSINESS administering a death sentence to its citizens.

Especially when it can't even be bothered to make sure they're not innocent first. Better a million guilty men go free than one innocent man be hanged and all of that.

You're not supposed to THINK your way through these things.  You are supposed to BAY FOR BLOOD, or you're a criminal coddling commie.

[Luna]

So having read that, I get quite a chill watching all these people cheering for the death penalty...

I'm cheering for the execution of Lawrence Russell Brewer, one of the three white supremists who dragged James Byrd Jr. to death.

<- That's me.

I just wish it was done with one of those old-fangled nasty contraptions rather than lethal injection.

Yes, emotionally-driven things like this are the best way to run a nation.

In the case of murderous racists, it is quite appropriate.

White supremacists are lethal and extremely well organized in prisons, moreso than they are on the outside.

Sure.  And it's okay if you occasionally kill the wrong guy, because your outrage will let you sleep at night.

Hey, it's CONSTITUTIONAL to kill the wrong guy, once in awhile, didn't ya know?

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/09/20/supreme-court-justice-antonin-scalia-says-executing-an-innocent-man-is-not-unconstitutional/

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

So having read that, I get quite a chill watching all these people cheering for the death penalty...

I'm cheering for the execution of Lawrence Russell Brewer, one of the three white supremists who dragged James Byrd Jr. to death.

<- That's me.

I just wish it was done with one of those old-fangled nasty contraptions rather than lethal injection.

Yes, emotionally-driven things like this are the best way to run a nation.

In the case of murderous racists, it is quite appropriate.

White supremacists are lethal and extremely well organized in prisons, moreso than they are on the outside.

Sure.  And it's okay if you occasionally kill the wrong guy, because your outrage will let you sleep at night.

Better to lock them up so they can kill more people in prison, eh?

[East Coast Hustle]

Yes, actually. Unless you are arguing that the state has a moral duty to kill people preemptively.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Yes, actually. Unless you are arguing that the state has a moral duty to kill people preemptively.

In the case of white supremacists in for tortuous murders, I wouldn't call that preemptive.  I believe the word you're looking for is justice.

They already murdered someone and are far more likely to keep murdering people in prison than most other murder convicts.

And in similar cases, the state does have a moral duty to kill people preemptively. Police snipers don't need to wait for an armed gunman to kill hostages before they kill the fuck. You don't need to wait for someone invading your home at night to attack you before you cap his ass.

[East Coast Hustle]

You aren't the state.

And taking out someone who is holding a gun to someone's head and threatening to kill them in that moment is VERY different from saying that someone should be executed rather than imprisoned because they MIGHT kill someone in prison.

And I fail to see what someone being a white supremacist has to do with any of it. You seem to be arguing that the state should administer the death penalty with emotions in mind rather than reason.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

The purpose of executing them is two-fold:

1. As a punishment for murder.

2. So they can't kill anyone else.

I apply the same logic to serial killers. There's no reason to think they won't continue killing people in prison. You can't keep them in solitary forever. And even in maximum security prisons they manage to kill other inmates.

If white supremacists did not have extremely powerful and well connected networks in prison it would be a different story. But the fact of the matter is they do, and they are better organized and more able to carry out murders in prison than any other group. I will dig up the evidence if I have to.

For those with shorter attention spans, watch the National Geographic special: Aryan Brotherhood. Here's their blurb about the video:

The Aryan Brotherhood are the most violent criminals behind bars. Their reach extends far beyond the cells of maximum security where they run a highly organised trafficking enterprise.

In the maximum-security prison world of murderers and rapists, they are the most feared. With nicknames like "The Beast" and "The Hulk", the warriors of The Aryan Brotherhood are the most violent criminals behind bars, men who strangle with their bare hands, shank guards, gouge out their enemies eyes at the slightest sign of disrespect. Forged in prison out of race wars against black gangs, prison officials tried to scatter the Brotherhood across the country but that only spreads their power nationwide. Today, their reach extends far beyond the windowless cells of maximum security from which they run a highly organized trafficking enterprise dealing in crystal meth, prostitution, intimidation and murder. We delve behind the bars to unveil the secrets of the vicious gang of white supremacists that has gained a stranglehold over the nations prisons.

On the surface of this, I can see how it appears to be an emotional argument, but it's not. Yes, everyone hates racists, but there's a lot more to it than that. The reality is that white supremacists have an incredible amount of power in prison and all too often they use it to murder other inmates. An avowed white supremacist in prison for murder has more in common with a serial killer and should be executed for the same reasons. Plus, they have the support of a pervasive network to help them do so.

[Phox]

ECH is absolutely correct here.

While it is a sadly necessary measure to preemptively kill some people who are an imminent and serious threat to the lives of innocent hostages, a tried and convicted criminal has been captured and is presumably, not currently a threat to anyone's well-being. The problem is the penal system in the U.S. is not designed to reform criminals and reintegrate them into society, but rather to punish them for daring to transgress. Visit the nearest federal prison and tell me that their goal is rehabilitation; I live a scant 20 some odd miles from the former supermax prison that they built to replace Alcatraz. It's since been downgraded to medium security, I believe. Regardless, it's not what one would associate with reforming those within it's walls, as I seem to recall that it is/was on permanent lockdown for nearly three decades (actually in relation to some violence related to the Aryan Brotherhood, I believe).

But that's besides the point. My point of view is that the emphasis should be on making these people (because, hey, they are people), and helping them change their ways, if this is not possible, well, then they should be isolated, but still treated like human beings. And there should never be a point at which "kill this person" is an acceptable form of correction.

[Phox]

The purpose of executing them is two-fold:

1. As a punishment for murder.

2. So they can't kill anyone else.

I apply the same logic to serial killers. There's no reason to think they won't continue killing people in prison. You can't keep them in solitary forever. And even in maximum security prisons they manage to kill other inmates.

If white supremacists did not have extremely powerful and well connected networks in prison it would be a different story. But the fact of the matter is they do, and they are better organized and more able to carry out murders in prison than any other group. I will dig up the evidence if I have to.

For those with shorter attention spans, watch the National Geographic special: Aryan Brotherhood. Here's their blurb about the video:

The Aryan Brotherhood are the most violent criminals behind bars. Their reach extends far beyond the cells of maximum security where they run a highly organised trafficking enterprise.

In the maximum-security prison world of murderers and rapists, they are the most feared. With nicknames like "The Beast" and "The Hulk", the warriors of The Aryan Brotherhood are the most violent criminals behind bars, men who strangle with their bare hands, shank guards, gouge out their enemies eyes at the slightest sign of disrespect. Forged in prison out of race wars against black gangs, prison officials tried to scatter the Brotherhood across the country but that only spreads their power nationwide. Today, their reach extends far beyond the windowless cells of maximum security from which they run a highly organized trafficking enterprise dealing in crystal meth, prostitution, intimidation and murder. We delve behind the bars to unveil the secrets of the vicious gang of white supremacists that has gained a stranglehold over the nations prisons.

On the surface of this, I can see how it appears to be an emotional argument, but it's not. Yes, everyone hates racists, but there's a lot more to it than that. The reality is that white supremacists have an incredible amount of power in prison and all too often they use it to murder other inmates. An avowed white supremacist in prison for murder has more in common with a serial killer and should be executed for the same reasons. Plus, they have the support of a pervasive network to help them do so.

Again, this is a problem with the system. The Aryan Brotherhood is a reprehensible organization, yes. But execution should NEVER be on the table. Ever see American History X? It's a good reminder that even people who do murder people (for these very reasons) can change, because they are still fucking people.

Maybe I'm still too optimistic, here. But whatever. I'd rather be optimistic and genuinely try to help people (even reprehensible people, who do reprehensible things) in the hope that they will recognize the error of their ways, than wind up killing people who are either repentant or, worse, actually innocent of the crime for which they've been accused and convicted.

[East Coast Hustle]

The purpose of executing them is two-fold:

1. As a punishment for murder.

2. So they can't kill anyone else.

Neither of these reasons stands up to logic. Making someone spend the reset of their natural life in prison is a much harsher punishment than just killing them. And the way to keep them from killing anyone else in prison is to administer prisons properly, not to kill inmates who might inconvenience the prison system by exposing it's inherent flaws. There is no rational argument to be made for state-administered capital punishment.

[Phox]

The purpose of executing them is two-fold:

1. As a punishment for murder.

2. So they can't kill anyone else.

Neither of these reasons stands up to logic. Making someone spend the reset of their natural life in prison is a much harsher punishment than just killing them. And the way to keep them from killing anyone else in prison is to administer prisons properly, not to kill inmates who might inconvenience the prison system by exposing it's inherent flaws. There is no rational argument to be made for state-administered capital punishment.

Bingo.

Hell, let's even flip this around:

"1. You belong to a certain group (Racists/serial killers/Aryan Brotherhood).
2. You may or may not have committed certain acts I find wrong (Murder).
3. You deserve to be put to death for this."

This is the logic you are applying right now.

Substitute "Blacks/Jews/homosexuals/construction workers/whatever" for 1. and "Rape/theft/religious crimes/whatever" for 2. and you have.... well, a goddamn indefensible position.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

You're just passing the buck to other inmates, who DO get permanently disabled or murdered. So, to prevent the murder of innocent people by the state, you enable the assault and murder of more inmates --- who also could be innocent.

The Aryan Brotherhood sure is easier to control and hold accountable than the state, right? And how, pray-tell, do you "properly administer prisons" to prevent them from doing what they do, day in and day out?

You can be as optimistic as you want about reforming people and reforming the prison system, meanwhile white supremacists will continue to rape, disable and murder IN prisons at a prolific rate.