Occupy

[Cain]

And a 0.05% tax on all your transactions is going to hurt how much exactly?

Besides, it's not just commercial banks, it is investment banks, hedge funds and similar financial institutions.  Most of which the average person in the street never uses or interacts with anyway. 

But you know, we could just stick with cutting taxes and cutting spending instead, because that seems to be really working out well so far.

[Scribbly]

They couldn't afford to pass on the full amount of pain to their commercial clients - if the figures I came across before are accurate, private savings make up 0.1% of banking. Passing on the cost would be simply too much to be tenable.

A tobin tax would be fantastic. It'll be interesting to see how politicians react if this becomes a mainstream demand.

ETA: Herp derp I screwed up my maths. Point still stands though.

[Golden Applesauce]

Apparently, Lemony Snicket has some things to say about OWS.  Who knew?

http://occupywriters.com/by-lemony-snicket

Thirteen Observations made by Lemony Snicket while watching Occupy Wall Street from a Discreet Distance

1. If you work hard, and become successful, it does not necessarily mean you are successful because you worked hard, just as if you are tall with long hair it doesn't mean you would be a midget if you were bald.

2. "Fortune" is a word for having a lot of money and for having a lot of luck, but that does not mean the word has two definitions.

3. Money is like a child—rarely unaccompanied. When it disappears, look to those who were supposed to be keeping an eye on it while you were at the grocery store. You might also look for someone who has a lot of extra children sitting around, with long, suspicious explanations for how they got there.

4. People who say money doesn't matter are like people who say cake doesn't matter—it's probably because they've already had a few slices.

5. There may not be a reason to share your cake. It is, after all, yours. You probably baked it yourself, in an oven of your own construction with ingredients you harvested yourself. It may be possible to keep your entire cake while explaining to any nearby hungry people just how reasonable you are.

6. Nobody wants to fall into a safety net, because it means the structure in which they've been living is in a state of collapse and they have no choice but to tumble downwards. However, it beats the alternative.

7. Someone feeling wronged is like someone feeling thirsty. Don't tell them they aren't. Sit with them and have a drink.

8. Don't ask yourself if something is fair. Ask someone else—a stranger in the street, for example.

9. People gathering in the streets feeling wronged tend to be loud, as it is difficult to make oneself heard on the other side of an impressive edifice.

10. It is not always the job of people shouting outside impressive buildings to solve problems. It is often the job of the people inside, who have paper, pens, desks, and an impressive view.

11. Historically, a story about people inside impressive buildings ignoring or even taunting people standing outside shouting at them turns out to be a story with an unhappy ending.

12. If you have a large crowd shouting outside your building, there might not be room for a safety net if you're the one tumbling down when it collapses.

13. 99 percent is a very large percentage. For instance, easily 99 percent of people want a roof over their heads, food on their tables, and the occasional slice of cake for dessert. Surely an arrangement can be made with that niggling 1 percent who disagree.

[Placid Dingo]

I go to OWS and I Scream!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/oct/10/occupy-wall-street-ben-jerrys

[The Rev]

THIS MAY BE HOW TO FIX CONGRESS... WITH ENOUGH PUBLIC PRESSURE.

Warren Buffett, in an interview with CNBC said this about the debt ceiling: We can end the deficit in 5 minutes... all we have to do is "pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election."

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! WHY? THE PEOPLE DEMANDED IT and that was in 1971 way before computers... email... cells phones... twitter... etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year or less to become the law of the land - ALL BECAUSE OF PUBLIC PRESSURE.

PLEASE CONSIDER DEMANDING THESE CHANGES... AND PLEASE SHARE

CONGRESSIONAL REFORM ACT OF 2011

1) No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2) Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people.
It may not be used for any other purpose.

3) Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4) Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by CPI or 3%, whichever is lower.

5) Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6) Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7) All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12.
The American people did not make these contracts with Congressmen/women;
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, it should not be a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work - our Presidents do.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Good-Day...4517013262

Seems irrelevant, tbh.  I wouldn't be completely against some kind of reasonable term limit for congressmen, but that's a (mostly) unrelated issue.  Making being a senator pay less just makes it even harder for people who aren't independently wealthy in the first place to run.  The problem isn't that congressmen have money, but that people with money have congressmen.

IIRC, the Roman senators were expected to serve more for honor than for money, and they developed some of the most blatantly corrupt practices ever (literally selling the taxpayer to the highest lowest bidder, and then bailing out the people who over-bid.)  See: Publicani.

I am amazed at how much of the proposals you ignored. This is about so much more than term limits.

[kingyak]

THIS MAY BE HOW TO FIX CONGRESS... WITH ENOUGH PUBLIC PRESSURE.

Warren Buffett, in an interview with CNBC said this about the debt ceiling: We can end the deficit in 5 minutes... all we have to do is "pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election."

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! WHY? THE PEOPLE DEMANDED IT and that was in 1971 way before computers... email... cells phones... twitter... etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year or less to become the law of the land - ALL BECAUSE OF PUBLIC PRESSURE.

PLEASE CONSIDER DEMANDING THESE CHANGES... AND PLEASE SHARE

CONGRESSIONAL REFORM ACT OF 2011

1) No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2) Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people.
It may not be used for any other purpose.

3) Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4) Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by CPI or 3%, whichever is lower.

5) Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6) Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7) All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12.
The American people did not make these contracts with Congressmen/women;
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, it should not be a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work - our Presidents do.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Good-Day...4517013262

I've seen something very close to the amendment portion of this before, usually coming from Tea Party types. IIRC, the big difference was that the previous version also called for cuts to travel budgets and housing allowances for Congress members (which could make it impossibly for the non-independently wealthy to serve, even if they by some miracle got elected). Does anybody know whether Buffet has actually suggested this or if they're just using his quote to give the amendment credibility by proximity?

[The Rev]

Technically that is called a Tobin Tax, and I've supported something like that for a while now.  It is very small, as you can see (0.05%) yet the additional revenue raised from it is quite extensive, and would go a long way to solving spending issues and paying off sovereign debt.

I can get behind this. Get ready for the banks to flood your TV with ads screaming about how this will destroy the economy though. They will spend enough on those ads to probably cover a years worth of the proposed tax.

[The Rev]

THIS MAY BE HOW TO FIX CONGRESS... WITH ENOUGH PUBLIC PRESSURE.

Warren Buffett, in an interview with CNBC said this about the debt ceiling: We can end the deficit in 5 minutes... all we have to do is "pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election."

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds) took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! WHY? THE PEOPLE DEMANDED IT and that was in 1971 way before computers... email... cells phones... twitter... etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year or less to become the law of the land - ALL BECAUSE OF PUBLIC PRESSURE.

PLEASE CONSIDER DEMANDING THESE CHANGES... AND PLEASE SHARE

CONGRESSIONAL REFORM ACT OF 2011

1) No Tenure / No Pension.
A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office.

2) Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security.
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the American people.
It may not be used for any other purpose.

3) Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do.

4) Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by CPI or 3%, whichever is lower.

5) Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6) Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people.

7) All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 1/1/12.
The American people did not make these contracts with Congressmen/women;
Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, it should not be a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work - our Presidents do.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Good-Day...4517013262

I've seen something very close to the amendment portion of this before, usually coming from Tea Party types. IIRC, the big difference was that the previous version also called for cuts to travel budgets and housing allowances for Congress members (which could make it impossibly for the non-independently wealthy to serve, even if they by some miracle got elected). Does anybody know whether Buffet has actually suggested this or if they're just using his quote to give the amendment credibility by proximity?

It already is impossible for the average Joe to serve in Congress. If these steps were followed however, it may remove the incentive for the super wealthy to want to serve, which in turn could be campaign reform by default.

The way I read it was they just used the quote in the opening, but not sure.

[kingyak]

Yeah, this one takes away the most obvious "Only millionaires can serve" line items from the tea party version.

I do, however, agree with whoever pointed out that congressional benefits and career politicians are a relatively small part of the problem. As long as corporate money remains in the system, changes like the ones proposed here are just rearranging the deck chairs.

[Cain]

The least corrupt political system in the world is in Singapore.  You know why?  On the one hand, Singaporese politicians are the highest paid on the planet.  And on the other hand, if they get caught on the take...well, barred from politics from life, plus hefty jail-time, plus a large fine is a mighty decent deterrent.

They have no incentive to take bribes, and every incentive to avoid being caught doing so.  This works remarkably well.

[The Rev]

Yeah, this one takes away the most obvious "Only millionaires can serve" line items from the tea party version.

I do, however, agree with whoever pointed out that congressional benefits and career politicians are a relatively small part of the problem. As long as corporate money remains in the system, changes like the ones proposed here are just rearranging the deck chairs.

I remain unconvinced of this argument. Career politicians become power brokers and thereby hold much more influence than was ever intended. When this happens they have the ability to change the rules cementing that power. What this does is feed a corrupt system, making it grow ever worse.

[The Rev]

The least corrupt political system in the world is in Singapore.  You know why?  On the one hand, Singaporese politicians are the highest paid on the planet.  And on the other hand, if they get caught on the take...well, barred from politics from life, plus hefty jail-time, plus a large fine is a mighty decent deterrent.

They have no incentive to take bribes, and every incentive to avoid being caught doing so.  This works remarkably well.

This I did not know.

[Phox]

So I am being informed that the police came to the Occupy Carbondale protest and forcibly took down and confiscated the tents. Note that the temperature is dropping, it's been raining the past couple days, and the occupiers have been camped there since the weekend. Note also that the protesters were told that they can continue to occupy the area, but are not allowed to put up tents.

Phox,
Might come up with a plan.

[The Rev]

So I am being informed that the police came to the Occupy Carbondale protest and forcibly took down and confiscated the tents. Note that the temperature is dropping, it's been raining the past couple days, and the occupiers have been camped there since the weekend. Note also that the protesters were told that they can continue to occupy the area, but are not allowed to put up tents.

Phox,
Might come up with a plan.

Pass out umbrellas and have everybody there stand in the 99% shape.

They did something like this at The Vigil for Peace. We were allowed to be there, but no personal items were allowed to be on the sidewalk.

[Phox]

That's a good idea. But I was thinking a more long-term shelter of some sort. Perhaps one of those pavilion frames with some heavy canvas draped over it....