Measles Outbreak.

[Jenne]

I can kinda see that.

It does give me a vague idea of how to use conspiracy theory to maybe combat this. Such as put the idea out there that the anti-vaccine movement is part of the NWO agenda to reduce the human population without getting blood on its hands. Let the people choose to get sick and die sort of thing.

Well, there's speculation now that part of the HPV backlash is the cost of the drug...the drug companies have increased the prices of the vaccine...I can't imagine why this would be so...can you?  ...?

[Jenne]

BACK IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS, MAN. MOTHERS DRANK AND SMOKED THROUGH THEIR PREGNANCIES AND KIDS NEVER WORE SEAT BELTS AND BABIES JUST RODE IN THEY MAMMA'S LAP, WE WOULD JUST RUN AROUND ALL DAY UNSUPERVISED AND SWIM IN THE RIVER AND WE ALL GOT MEASLES, MUMPS, RUBELLA, CHICKEN POX, SMALLPOX, YELLOW FEVER, DENGUE FEVER, AND MALARIA AND WE ALL TURNED OUT JUST FINE. NO BABIES WERE EVER LOW BIRTH WEIGHT OR STILLBORN AND NOBODY EVER DIED OF CONTUSIONS AFTER A CAR ACCIDENT AND THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS CRIB DEATH AND NONE OF US EVER DROWNED OR WERE KIDNAPPED OR RAPED, THAT'S JUST THE WAY THINGS WERE BACK IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN PEOPLE WERE TOUGHER.

I actually appreciate this point of view when we're talking about how far we've come and how far we still have to go.  Hawk's perspective--and Rog's when he waxes nostalgic--remind me of why we were inspired to invent, appreciate the culture we grew up in, and love the strength of personality that we get called down upon by other Westerners (that "rugged individualism" that's so loved and despised equally).

But I do not wish I was born in the past.  Nuh-uh.  And I am VERY fucking grateful to be born in So Cal, USandA.  For all its warts and spots...THIS is still a great time for a woman to be born in, and a fucking fabulous area to grow up and live in.  Sinkhole for culture, sometimes; fucked up beyond recognition in all things stable, perhaps--but no other time was any moreso, really.  You just had to have a lot of fucking luck and know-how to survive those times, in reality.

So while I see anti-vaccination crowds as brutally dishonest with themselves, I don't really see Hawk's viewpoint in the same light--just an example of "why panic?, the world goes on even after epidemics come through."  A lot of 3rd World occupants actually have the same outlook (my husband often espouses this "small potatoes" thing...over things I think deserve more passion of thought).  Those who've been through tough times over decades seem to often sorta go there...veterans of humanity, so to speak.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I don't want to ride a fucking dinosaur.

Speak for yourself 

Twid,
needs a specialized saddle for a Stegosaurus.

[Jenne]

I don't want to ride a fucking dinosaur.

Speak for yourself 

Twid,
needs a specialized saddle for a Stegosaurus.

Jenne,

Is not a lunch.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I don't want to ride a fucking dinosaur.

Speak for yourself  

Twid,
needs a specialized saddle for a Stegosaurus.

Jenne,

Is not a lunch.

Twid,
Mentioned heavily armored herbivore for a reason
That and Stegs are cooler than T-Rexes. 

[Jenne]

I don't want to ride a fucking dinosaur.

Speak for yourself 

Twid,
needs a specialized saddle for a Stegosaurus.

Jenne,

Is not a lunch.

Twid,
Mentioned heavily armored herbivore for a reason
That and Stegs are cooler than T-Rexes. 

Yeahbut...which ones you think some dumbass is going to wanna bring back?  The wusses you can ride or the fuckers that are badass and all?

Yeah, humans = dumbshits. 

           ^
           |
           |

POINT OF WHOLE THREAD RIGHT THERE.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I don't want to ride a fucking dinosaur.

Speak for yourself 

Twid,
needs a specialized saddle for a Stegosaurus.

Jenne,

Is not a lunch.

Twid,
Mentioned heavily armored herbivore for a reason
That and Stegs are cooler than T-Rexes. 

Yeahbut...which ones you think some dumbass is going to wanna bring back?  The wusses you can ride or the fuckers that are badass and all?

Yeah, humans = dumbshits. 

           ^
           |
           |

POINT OF WHOLE THREAD RIGHT THERE.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Also, Coyote needs to womp me riding a Stegosaurus now.

[Jenne]

Also, Coyote needs to womp me riding a Stegosaurus now.

AGREED.  THIS MUST BE DONE.  FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

And you should be riding full armored and wielding a hugeass syringe.  Like 40 gauge.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Also, Coyote needs to womp me riding a Stegosaurus now.

AGREED.  THIS MUST BE DONE.  FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

And you should be riding full armored and wielding a hugeass syringe.  Like 40 gauge.

HURRY UP AND GET OFF DUTY PRIVATE!

[Don Coyote]

Also, Coyote needs to womp me riding a Stegosaurus now.

ok. you did ask.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

BACK IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS, MAN. MOTHERS DRANK AND SMOKED THROUGH THEIR PREGNANCIES AND KIDS NEVER WORE SEAT BELTS AND BABIES JUST RODE IN THEY MAMMA'S LAP, WE WOULD JUST RUN AROUND ALL DAY UNSUPERVISED AND SWIM IN THE RIVER AND WE ALL GOT MEASLES, MUMPS, RUBELLA, CHICKEN POX, SMALLPOX, YELLOW FEVER, DENGUE FEVER, AND MALARIA AND WE ALL TURNED OUT JUST FINE. NO BABIES WERE EVER LOW BIRTH WEIGHT OR STILLBORN AND NOBODY EVER DIED OF CONTUSIONS AFTER A CAR ACCIDENT AND THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS CRIB DEATH AND NONE OF US EVER DROWNED OR WERE KIDNAPPED OR RAPED, THAT'S JUST THE WAY THINGS WERE BACK IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN PEOPLE WERE TOUGHER.

I actually appreciate this point of view when we're talking about how far we've come and how far we still have to go.  Hawk's perspective--and Rog's when he waxes nostalgic--remind me of why we were inspired to invent, appreciate the culture we grew up in, and love the strength of personality that we get called down upon by other Westerners (that "rugged individualism" that's so loved and despised equally).

But I do not wish I was born in the past.  Nuh-uh.  And I am VERY fucking grateful to be born in So Cal, USandA.  For all its warts and spots...THIS is still a great time for a woman to be born in, and a fucking fabulous area to grow up and live in.  Sinkhole for culture, sometimes; fucked up beyond recognition in all things stable, perhaps--but no other time was any moreso, really.  You just had to have a lot of fucking luck and know-how to survive those times, in reality.

So while I see anti-vaccination crowds as brutally dishonest with themselves, I don't really see Hawk's viewpoint in the same light--just an example of "why panic?, the world goes on even after epidemics come through."  A lot of 3rd World occupants actually have the same outlook (my husband often espouses this "small potatoes" thing...over things I think deserve more passion of thought).  Those who've been through tough times over decades seem to often sorta go there...veterans of humanity, so to speak.

None of the small things... the infections and cancers and fevers that are now preventable... are causes for mass panic, they aren't famine or war or tsunami. But they add up to a significantly improved quality of life and health. So, BFD, we'd only be looking at .3% mortality from unchecked measles. 1.6% from mumps, with an additional .1% with permanent hearing loss. Rubella has an extremely low mortality rate, but a very high complication rate including blindness, deafness, brain damage and disfigurement... and the mortality rate jumps to an astonishing 48% in unborn children whose mothers contract the disease. All three diseases can have long-term nervous system complications. Most deaths occur in infants under one year old. Back in the day women didn't just assume that their babies would survive their first year, or even make it through childbirth. That doesn't make it any less heartbreaking for women who lose their babies. I think a lot of these mortalities are simply off the radar even for people who grew up with it happening near them; kids might know that someone's baby died or was stillborn, but not make the connection to the cause. They might know that there's a retarded kid in school, but not realize that he's retarded due to brain damage from measles.

I don't really get the "No big deal" or Dawkins fallacy perspective. So a shit-ton of my friends are dead of things that they probably shouldn't be dead of... that doesn't mean I'm going to minimize the significance of people having the chance to avoid those kinds of deaths. Mumps and measles were still common when I was a kid... and it sucked ass.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Speaking of mental retardation; we just don't have retarded people like we used to. Back in the 1950's we had eugenic programs to round up and sterilize mentally retarded and mentally ill people, using dubious science and even more dubious ethics. Funny, isn't it, that vaccination turned out to be a far more effective preventative of mental retardation; most of the retarded people now are congenitally handicapped, rather than the result of encephalitis, a complication of mumps, measles, chicken pox, and rubella that used to be so common.

[Jenne]

Speaking of mental retardation; we just don't have retarded people like we used to. Back in the 1950's we had eugenic programs to round up and sterilize mentally retarded and mentally ill people, using dubious science and even more dubious ethics. Funny, isn't it, that vaccination turned out to be a far more effective preventative of mental retardation; most of the retarded people now are congenitally handicapped, rather than the result of encephalitis, a complication of mumps, measles, chicken pox, and rubella that used to be so common.

WE don't...but 3rd World countries do.  WE don't have dwarves and folks born without limbs, etc. as much as we used to as well.

No, I agree with what you're saying...about the "yesteryears" because like I said--everything IS, indeed, BETTER than it was, for those living HERE, than it was back in the day.  I don't want to return to a time of more ignorance and less acceptance, less hygeine and more disease.  I think that's ludicrous.

I was just saying I appreciate a viewpoint that takes things in measures of time beyond my OWN scope is all.  It doesn't mean what's important to me is less so, just means that a broader timeline and perspective can deepen my acknowledgement of that importance...to me.  Again, I live with someone that doesn't see most things that I feel are important in small scale are even RETRIEVABLE for the care cup--in fact, he is rather adamant about certain things that would surprise and shock the average Westerner as being close to important because he IS so very big picture (and that truly can be HIS failing, imho).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Speaking of mental retardation; we just don't have retarded people like we used to. Back in the 1950's we had eugenic programs to round up and sterilize mentally retarded and mentally ill people, using dubious science and even more dubious ethics. Funny, isn't it, that vaccination turned out to be a far more effective preventative of mental retardation; most of the retarded people now are congenitally handicapped, rather than the result of encephalitis, a complication of mumps, measles, chicken pox, and rubella that used to be so common.

WE don't...but 3rd World countries do.  WE don't have dwarves and folks born without limbs, etc. as much as we used to as well.

No, I agree with what you're saying...about the "yesteryears" because like I said--everything IS, indeed, BETTER than it was, for those living HERE, than it was back in the day.  I don't want to return to a time of more ignorance and less acceptance, less hygeine and more disease.  I think that's ludicrous.

I was just saying I appreciate a viewpoint that takes things in measures of time beyond my OWN scope is all.  It doesn't mean what's important to me is less so, just means that a broader timeline and perspective can deepen my acknowledgement of that importance...to me.  Again, I live with someone that doesn't see most things that I feel are important in small scale are even RETRIEVABLE for the care cup--in fact, he is rather adamant about certain things that would surprise and shock the average Westerner as being close to important because he IS so very big picture (and that truly can be HIS failing, imho).

Yes, you can pretty much go to any 3rd world country and see what good hygiene, nutrition and medical care do for the human condition. I certainly wouldn't want to live in one... nor have been born 60 years earlier, either. Hopefully we can keep moving forward in providing more of these things for more people.