Author Topic: Prostitution & feminism  (Read 17545 times)

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2011, 02:32:36 pm »
Holy fuck. That's like Marlo Thomas on meth.  :horrormirth:

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Jenne

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2011, 04:14:05 pm »
I honestly cannot tell if I'm completely incoherent or if people are reading my posts in a way that they want to try and disregard what in saying.

Of course human trafficking is a real problem. But if human trafficking was exactly the same thing as prostitution nobody would ever be able to argue that it's either empowering or consistent with feminism because by definition you are stripped of your rights and power.

However having no money and going to work for a brothel, is not human trafficking. There's a fair argument to say it's disempowering, or even the stronger argument that it CANNOT be empowering but it is not by definition the same thing as human trafficking. Making a distinction doesn't make me unaware of human trafficking any more than saying Genocide is not the same thing as Homocide makes me a holocaust denier.

Jenne so far as I can tell you're saying everything about prostitution is both damaging and linked to every other damaging facet of the industry, so we should consider human trafficking and any other damaging outcome as synonymous with prostitution as a whole?

I'm ok if you want to say; 'for the purpose of discussing prostitution, I want to consider only prostitution connected to trafficking, or something of the kind, but please don't treat me like a complete moron, especially when every single post has acknowledged how large of a problem human trafficking is, and have specifically noted that it's an issue in Australia (mostly a destination country for trafficking from the local Asian nations and internal from preying on indigenous girls in bad situations).

Addendum; Trips point is good that trafficking does make up a major part of prostitution, and I'll admit to not knowing the exact stats. I do know a lot of Aussie protitutes come from Asian backgrounds in poor areas, though I'm not convncec that they're all trafficked (desperate for a means to earn a livelihood perhaps, which isn't good, but isn't by definition trafficking.) I guess when talking about 'is prostitution femininist' it seems to me important to focus on the variety of scenarios out there not singularly on the most heinous.

I'm saying, you can't talk about prostitution WITHOUT that factor that it's a shitty practice in general because of all that "most heinous" you refer to but want to ignore so you can focus on "the variety of scenarios."

Thing is, no one is bringing up what the "variety of scenarios" that AREN'T fucked up would be...so perhaps provide us with a few so we can compare?

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2011, 04:17:22 pm »
Pointless anecdote time:  So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine?  One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on.  This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song. 

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"

"Yes!" she cried, emphatically.  "And it's fucking sexist.  Where does he get off?  What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?  Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"

"He is paying her to stay off the streets.  Maybe she likes the streets.  Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient.  His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."

"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"

"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."

I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing.  It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid.  Or, so I like to imagine.


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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #123 on: December 02, 2011, 05:10:15 pm »
BTW Placid Dingo, I didn't wrote that in a snarky way to get at you, it was just a great opportunity for a snarky remark :) FYI.
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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2011, 09:07:00 am »
I honestly cannot tell if I'm completely incoherent or if people are reading my posts in a way that they want to try and disregard what in saying.

Of course human trafficking is a real problem. But if human trafficking was exactly the same thing as prostitution nobody would ever be able to argue that it's either empowering or consistent with feminism because by definition you are stripped of your rights and power.

However having no money and going to work for a brothel, is not human trafficking. There's a fair argument to say it's disempowering, or even the stronger argument that it CANNOT be empowering but it is not by definition the same thing as human trafficking. Making a distinction doesn't make me unaware of human trafficking any more than saying Genocide is not the same thing as Homocide makes me a holocaust denier.

Jenne so far as I can tell you're saying everything about prostitution is both damaging and linked to every other damaging facet of the industry, so we should consider human trafficking and any other damaging outcome as synonymous with prostitution as a whole?

I'm ok if you want to say; 'for the purpose of discussing prostitution, I want to consider only prostitution connected to trafficking, or something of the kind, but please don't treat me like a complete moron, especially when every single post has acknowledged how large of a problem human trafficking is, and have specifically noted that it's an issue in Australia (mostly a destination country for trafficking from the local Asian nations and internal from preying on indigenous girls in bad situations).

Addendum; Trips point is good that trafficking does make up a major part of prostitution, and I'll admit to not knowing the exact stats. I do know a lot of Aussie protitutes come from Asian backgrounds in poor areas, though I'm not convncec that they're all trafficked (desperate for a means to earn a livelihood perhaps, which isn't good, but isn't by definition trafficking.) I guess when talking about 'is prostitution femininist' it seems to me important to focus on the variety of scenarios out there not singularly on the most heinous.

I'm saying, you can't talk about prostitution WITHOUT that factor that it's a shitty practice in general because of all that "most heinous" you refer to but want to ignore so you can focus on "the variety of scenarios."

Thing is, no one is bringing up what the "variety of scenarios" that AREN'T fucked up would be...so perhaps provide us with a few so we can compare?

I dont want to try to make a point of saying it isn't fucked up. that's not my position.

I do think that it's worth talking about the trafficking scenario, but that it's not the whole of prostitution.

What are the other scenarios?

Any scenario where a person chooses to sell themselves for money. Now I know choice is a hell of a word in this context, but all I mean is that the person is not compelled by the will of someone else.

This could include scenarios as mundane as thinking it will be easy and looking for an easy way to make money by working in a legal brothel.

It could include scenarios as damaging as people who are struggling to survive while nursing a meth addiction.

So I can agree that you can't gloss over the negatives, but I still think if you're talking in general terms about prostitution, that you can't just choose one scenario and act as though it typifies all instances. If the OP question was referring to men who visit trafficking victims my response would have been different.
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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2011, 09:59:31 am »
BTW Placid Dingo, I didn't wrote that in a snarky way to get at you, it was just a great opportunity for a snarky remark :) FYI.
No problem, I tend to try to take things in good faith.
If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2011, 05:56:07 pm »
I honestly cannot tell if I'm completely incoherent or if people are reading my posts in a way that they want to try and disregard what in saying.

Of course human trafficking is a real problem. But if human trafficking was exactly the same thing as prostitution nobody would ever be able to argue that it's either empowering or consistent with feminism because by definition you are stripped of your rights and power.

However having no money and going to work for a brothel, is not human trafficking. There's a fair argument to say it's disempowering, or even the stronger argument that it CANNOT be empowering but it is not by definition the same thing as human trafficking. Making a distinction doesn't make me unaware of human trafficking any more than saying Genocide is not the same thing as Homocide makes me a holocaust denier.

Jenne so far as I can tell you're saying everything about prostitution is both damaging and linked to every other damaging facet of the industry, so we should consider human trafficking and any other damaging outcome as synonymous with prostitution as a whole?

I'm ok if you want to say; 'for the purpose of discussing prostitution, I want to consider only prostitution connected to trafficking, or something of the kind, but please don't treat me like a complete moron, especially when every single post has acknowledged how large of a problem human trafficking is, and have specifically noted that it's an issue in Australia (mostly a destination country for trafficking from the local Asian nations and internal from preying on indigenous girls in bad situations).

Addendum; Trips point is good that trafficking does make up a major part of prostitution, and I'll admit to not knowing the exact stats. I do know a lot of Aussie protitutes come from Asian backgrounds in poor areas, though I'm not convncec that they're all trafficked (desperate for a means to earn a livelihood perhaps, which isn't good, but isn't by definition trafficking.) I guess when talking about 'is prostitution femininist' it seems to me important to focus on the variety of scenarios out there not singularly on the most heinous.

I'm saying, you can't talk about prostitution WITHOUT that factor that it's a shitty practice in general because of all that "most heinous" you refer to but want to ignore so you can focus on "the variety of scenarios."

Thing is, no one is bringing up what the "variety of scenarios" that AREN'T fucked up would be...so perhaps provide us with a few so we can compare?

I dont want to try to make a point of saying it isn't fucked up. that's not my position.

I do think that it's worth talking about the trafficking scenario, but that it's not the whole of prostitution.

What are the other scenarios?

Any scenario where a person chooses to sell themselves for money. Now I know choice is a hell of a word in this context, but all I mean is that the person is not compelled by the will of someone else.

This could include scenarios as mundane as thinking it will be easy and looking for an easy way to make money by working in a legal brothel.

It could include scenarios as damaging as people who are struggling to survive while nursing a meth addiction.

So I can agree that you can't gloss over the negatives, but I still think if you're talking in general terms about prostitution, that you can't just choose one scenario and act as though it typifies all instances. If the OP question was referring to men who visit trafficking victims my response would have been different.

Pretty much the only scenario I can think of in which a person would be "empowered" by prostitution is if that was their kink, and it actually turned them on and they got off on it. I don't think it would really alter my opinion of the people paying for sex, though.

Most prostitutes don't become aroused when they have sex with their clients, though.
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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #127 on: December 11, 2011, 11:18:34 pm »
I will be watching this documentary in two days with some friends.
http://youtu.be/z9eqXtCxm_g
Quote
Ouwehoeren is about two twin sisters, Martine and Louise Fokkens, in their late sixties. Both have been working as prostitutes in Amsterdam, and one of them still does! Ouwehoeren shows their way of life and the life behind the red curtains.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #128 on: January 16, 2012, 03:55:41 pm »
Something to add, here:  I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.

He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally.  He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #129 on: January 16, 2012, 04:14:51 pm »
Something to add, here:  I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.

He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally.  He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.

 :lulz: Kinda validates my initial impressions of dudes who go to prostitutes.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #130 on: January 16, 2012, 04:25:15 pm »
Something to add, here:  I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.

He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally.  He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.

 :lulz: Kinda validates my initial impressions of dudes who go to prostitutes.

Yeah, the guy basically has a view about sex the same way he views getting his oil changed in his car:  A necessity that should be dealt with as quickly and conveniently as possible, and then he doesn't want to think about it until next time.

It's not that he couldn't get a girlfriend if he tried; frankly, it's good that he doesn't try, as there is no woman on Earth that deserves that.  It's that he honestly feels no need for one, as far as I can tell.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #131 on: January 16, 2012, 07:12:44 pm »
Something to add, here:  I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.

He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally.  He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.

 :lulz: Kinda validates my initial impressions of dudes who go to prostitutes.

Yeah, the guy basically has a view about sex the same way he views getting his oil changed in his car:  A necessity that should be dealt with as quickly and conveniently as possible, and then he doesn't want to think about it until next time.

It's not that he couldn't get a girlfriend if he tried; frankly, it's good that he doesn't try, as there is no woman on Earth that deserves that.  It's that he honestly feels no need for one, as far as I can tell.

That right there is enough justification for legalizing prostitution.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #132 on: January 16, 2012, 07:13:34 pm »
Something to add, here:  I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.

He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally.  He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.

 :lulz: Kinda validates my initial impressions of dudes who go to prostitutes.

Yeah, the guy basically has a view about sex the same way he views getting his oil changed in his car:  A necessity that should be dealt with as quickly and conveniently as possible, and then he doesn't want to think about it until next time.

It's not that he couldn't get a girlfriend if he tried; frankly, it's good that he doesn't try, as there is no woman on Earth that deserves that.  It's that he honestly feels no need for one, as far as I can tell.

That right there is enough justification for legalizing prostitution.

To cater to sociopaths?

I consider him an argument against it.   :lulz:
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #133 on: January 16, 2012, 07:30:34 pm »
Something to add, here:  I know a guy who makes use of prostitutes, not because they're all dirty & forbidden, but because he doesn't like people and wants sex without any form of relationship at all.

He's a complete prick in every sense of the term, incidentally.  He's pretty much one of the worst human beings I've ever met.

 :lulz: Kinda validates my initial impressions of dudes who go to prostitutes.

Yeah, the guy basically has a view about sex the same way he views getting his oil changed in his car:  A necessity that should be dealt with as quickly and conveniently as possible, and then he doesn't want to think about it until next time.

It's not that he couldn't get a girlfriend if he tried; frankly, it's good that he doesn't try, as there is no woman on Earth that deserves that.  It's that he honestly feels no need for one, as far as I can tell.

That right there is enough justification for legalizing prostitution.

To cater to sociopaths?

I consider him an argument against it.   :lulz:

Well, consider the alternative, which is what happens when sociopaths want sex and there are no prostitutes.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #134 on: January 17, 2012, 07:53:28 am »
I was talking about this on FB the other day (and by "talking" I mean trying to educate some retards that happen to be friends with some of my friends). the one thing we all pretty much agreed on was that prostitution should be legalized and regulated.

And then I found this: http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/laws/000022.html

And now I'm not so sure about that.
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