Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The one good thing: I get to write a play about this, and it will be performed around Portland at least a dozen times next season.

[LMNO]

So the other night I discovered that not only does my ex still considers me (and apparently, most of the black people in the Pacific NW) "culturally white", but he has no idea that our daughter identifies as African American.

I don't have the heart to tell her that she's not legally black.

The phrase "culturally white" is so fucking stupid it makes my eye twitch.

but fuck it, from now on I'm culturally black.

Actually, I could probably believe that.

Yeah, I assumed that ECH was black or native for the longest time. Even after I met him, because appearances can be deceiving.

He is clearly culturally black.

So, possibly the most offensive part of the evening is when I said "You see, when you state that educated and articulate black people are culturally white, you are designating education and articulation as necessarily white qualities" and my ex said "YES, that's exactly what I mean!"

I

can't

even

You DAMN RIGHT it is!
       \

[Elder Iptuous]

jesus.  what a dick.
so, does he mean that education and the concomitant articulateness (actually a word. i checked) are associated with white people due to a system that denied it to black people historically, or that its association is due to an intrinsic aspect of the races?  if you said 'necessarily white qualities' it seems that it would be the latter, but id hope that the BOD is justified...

[LMNO]

What's really amazing to me is that he believes that, despite all the examples to the contrary, i.e. educated articulate black people and dumb-as-fuck drawling white people.

[Don Coyote]

So the other night I discovered that not only does my ex still considers me (and apparently, most of the black people in the Pacific NW) "culturally white", but he has no idea that our daughter identifies as African American.

I don't have the heart to tell her that she's not legally black.

The phrase "culturally white" is so fucking stupid it makes my eye twitch.

but fuck it, from now on I'm culturally black.

Actually, I could probably believe that.

Yeah, I assumed that ECH was black or native for the longest time. Even after I met him, because appearances can be deceiving.

He is clearly culturally black.

So, possibly the most offensive part of the evening is when I said "You see, when you state that educated and articulate black people are culturally white, you are designating education and articulation as necessarily white qualities" and my ex said "YES, that's exactly what I mean!"

I

can't

even

Woooooow

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

jesus.  what a dick.
so, does he mean that education and the concomitant articulateness (actually a word. i checked) are associated with white people due to a system that denied it to black people historically, or that its association is due to an intrinsic aspect of the races?  if you said 'necessarily white qualities' it seems that it would be the latter, but id hope that the BOD is justified...

Well, he's linking it to culture, so essentially what he's saying is that education is a white cultural phenomenon.

He seems absolutely unable to grasp the concept that education is largely a function of class, not race, and that the reason that fewer black people have historically attained high levels of education in America is because they were blocked from the upper classes.

There is also the problem of conflating race and culture. Black is not a culture, and White is not a culture. There are subcultures that are predominantly White or predominantly Black, but even in those there is crossover... trailer trash, for example. Is "trailer" a race-linked culture?

There's also the conflation of "Southern" with "Black". Here in the NW, there is a cultural difference between Black families who have been here a few generations, and Black families who moved here from the South in the last 50 years (There has been a large influx from the South, starting in the 60's). Much of what he is mistaking for "Black" is actually "Southern".

Not to say that there aren't distinct and recognizable subcultures within various regional and racial groupings, or that the subcultures may be partially defined by race, but the subcultures are not defining qualities of race.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

What's really amazing to me is that he believes that, despite all the examples to the contrary, i.e. educated articulate black people and dumb-as-fuck drawling white people.

Annnnnnd this.

I cannot believe I was married to that man.

[navkat]

[EDIT: Oops, Nigel beat me to the education point...sorta.]

What suddenly occurs to me is that this very concept might be part of the reason why racial equality (and therefore, race becoming a non-issue) in this country is taking an agonizingly long time in this country.

White people receiving a good education & speaking articulately = expected
Black people receiving a good education & speaking articulately = BONUS if it happens but not a luxury we can always afford to make a reality.

Aside: Working-class neighborhoods in this country are becoming more and more multi-cultural and blended so money-pocket neighborhoods like Schaumberg, IL = good education. Everywhere else = subpar education.

HAY: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x918882

[Elder Iptuous]

What's really amazing to me is that he believes that, despite all the examples to the contrary, i.e. educated articulate black people and dumb-as-fuck drawling white people.

you're certainly not calling a linguistic drawl a test for intelligence are you? 


Nigel, it sounds like the problem on his part is an inability to see that correlation is not causation.  how does he persist in his claim after you point out the obvious truths that you spell out here?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

What's really amazing to me is that he believes that, despite all the examples to the contrary, i.e. educated articulate black people and dumb-as-fuck drawling white people.

you're certainly not calling a linguistic drawl a test for intelligence are you? 


Nigel, it sounds like the problem on his part is an inability to see that correlation is not causation.  how does he persist in his claim after you point out the obvious truths that you spell out here?

He persists by being big, loud and obnoxious until everyone gives up trying to talk to him.

Holy shit, I just realized that he and ECH must NEVER meet because I think ECH wouldn't be able to resist the urge to beat the crap out of him.

[Elder Iptuous]

never say never.
i mean, don't say never.
i mean... ECH should beat the crap out of him.

[Phox]

never say never.
i mean, don't say never.
i mean... ECH should beat the crap out of him.

I was thinking precisely that. 

In all honesty though, has your ex ever been outside of the PNW? I ask particularly because you say that he conflates a lot of "Southern" culture with "Black" culture, and it makes me think that he is very culturally... isolated? i don't think that's necessarily the right word, but it will do for now.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

never say never.
i mean, don't say never.
i mean... ECH should beat the crap out of him.

I was thinking precisely that. 

In all honesty though, has your ex ever been outside of the PNW? I ask particularly because you say that he conflates a lot of "Southern" culture with "Black" culture, and it makes me think that he is very culturally... isolated? i don't think that's necessarily the right word, but it will do for now.

He's traveled, but he's from Beaverton.

He thinks he's very sophisticated and cosmopolitan because he's been to Italy. 

[East Coast Hustle]

Beaverton: It's not quite Lake Oswego!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Beaverton: It's not quite Lake Oswego!

Perfect description!