Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Phox]

So what can I possibly do about it? Tell me and if it's practical and doesn't require I make ginormous sacrifices, I'll try it.

I try to be a good human being that treats others with a sort of assumed, blind respect. I mean I make the conscious choice to do this every time someone tries my patience or I want to be complacent when I should stop and help.

I meet people, get over the initial novelty of their differences (whatever those may be) and accept them. Bam. They become a ball of...just themselves. I think this is a pretty neat way to be and I always sort of liked this about myself. Now, you say it's wrong somehow. It's not doing enough. Tell me: what am I supposed to be doing?

Wait. No one said that's wrong.

[East Coast Hustle]

yeah, I think we're miscommunicating here.

You're saying "I don't see race" when what you seem to mean is "I treat everyone with a basic level of respect until they give me a reason to think they don't deserve it."

The latter is awesome, admirable, and something you should obviously continue to do, but that's not what it means to "not see race".

[Phox]

yeah, I think we're miscommunicating here.

You're saying "I don't see race" when what you seem to mean is "I treat everyone with a basic level of respect until they give me a reason to think they don't deserve it."

The latter is awesome, admirable, and something you should obviously continue to do, but that's not what it means to "not see race".

What ECH said.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

In part directly relevant to this thread: http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2012/01/16/shuffling-feet-a-black-mans-view-on-schroedingers-rapist/

Oooh, that is an awesome blog! Bookmarking.

I want to address Navkat on a semi-tangential basis with some thoughts I was having earlier today: I have noticed (and this goes well beyond my noticing; it's well-observed enough that it's a common trope in TV and movies) that people who feel themselves to be outcasts or freaks of some kind in dominant society will often tend to gravitate toward other people who are marginalized by normative culture. They see "non-normative" as being a factor of kinship rather than alienation. I can see how that would alter your perceptions of race; it's still a factor, but in different ways.

Here is the thing my OP was trying to express; that the luxury of "not seeing race" is the exclusive domain of white privilege. It is part and parcel of white privilege.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

AFAIK, I'm the only honkey here who's been on the other side of this.

And I sure as hell see race. And I am intimately acquainted with not being able to escape my race in social and professional settings. I've been jumped and had my ass kicked, had rocks thrown at me, been threatened with guns, been subject to arbitrarily high prices on merchandise, and been denied jobs for literally no other reason than the color of my skin. I'm aware that it's given me a perspective that most white people in Americanada/Europe/Australia won't ever have (and let me preempt anyone who is about to say some dumb shit like "BUT I LIVED IN THE GHETTO" by assuring you that it's not even remotely the same - you can take a bus out of the ghetto, not so much on an island) and it's high on the list of things I'm thankful for in regards to my unusual upbringing. And yeah, most white people in the "western world" who "don't see race" are probably well-meaning, but they're also not doing anything to advance the dialogue and help actually overcome the problem. I've had my life literally saved because somebody present in a bad situation did see race and realized that if they didn't come to my defense I was going to be murdered in cold blood for being white. Had I been black, in that same situation, they would likely have assumed that I was the victim of gang/drug-related violence just like almost all of the other homicide victims in the VI and looked the other way (like any smart person would).

In short, fuck the whole "I don't see race" thing. I know you guys mean well but it's the exact wrong way to go about it.

Right on.

It's funny, since early on I've assumed you aren't white, because although you look white, you seem to function more from a... dare I say it... colored perspective.

The really funny part is that the way the unavoidable imprinting that takes place in childhood regarding that sort of stuff seems to have manifested in me comes in the form of me being generally inclined to be more distrustful of (Anglo-American) white people than of people of other races/cultures. It's stupid and silly and anytime I catch myself doing it I mentally slap myself and tell myself to smarten up, but it's there.

And I hope nobody took my post as some sort of appeal to authority, I just wanted to share a perspective that I doubt anyone else here has.

And yeah, I'm of two minds about the New Seasons on North Williams. Those are generally good jobs (I hope they're smart enough to hire from within the neighborhood) and that area was a food desert before, but how many of the people that live in close proximity to it are going to be able to afford to shop there?

About half of them; mostly the white half.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You know phox you bringing up the white guy who dresses like that is an interesting thing too.

It suddenly becomes socially acceptable to mock him and call him a whigger because hes not acting white. The fact that some people find the term whigger socially still acceptable blows my mind

Oh man, yeah. That one gets me too.

I like to play dumb and reply with "what does wigger mean?"

Alot of people get as far as "well, you know...." then can't bring themselves to actually say it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

yeah, I think we're miscommunicating here.

You're saying "I don't see race" when what you seem to mean is "I treat everyone with a basic level of respect until they give me a reason to think they don't deserve it."

The latter is awesome, admirable, and something you should obviously continue to do, but that's not what it means to "not see race".

What ECH said.

What Phox said about what ECH said.

[navkat]

Okay, it's priveleged. I'm supposed to be behaving in a more conscious manner, right? So how? How does making myself painfully aware of the possible fears and plights of people based on arbitrary factors that others won't chill the fuck out about do anything other than become a game of supposition and awareness?

So it's naive for me to want everyone to feel comfortably non-consciousness...as naive as wishing everyone gets a pony. So does that mean it's perpetuating unfairness if I ride around on my magic hosrie before everyone has one? Gallop around, blissfully offering rides to people who don't even own stables?

IS MY BATSHIT RHETORIC MAKING SENSE HERE?

I'm saying that I still have faith that I'm a passive part of the solution. My personality, awareness, attitudes and intent are all decent and okay. I don't wanna fight. I don't wanna sit around thinking about it. I just wanna gallop around in glee.

This isn't an economic reality thing where ignoring the problem makes me part of it so the Ferrari metaphor makes no sense. This is an attitude thing in which acceptance plays a huge role. Can't I just exist as an example of that (more or less, with some flaws that I correct as I see em) thereby adding to the body of the "not problem?"

Doesn't it take a bunch of star-bellied sneeches and plain-bellied sneeches alike going "it doesn't matter one way or another" to make the man with the machine leave the island?

[East Coast Hustle]

In this context, the man with the machine won't ever leave the island.

And if you think "Ferrari" was a bad analogy, feel free to substitute it with "unicorn".

As for what you can actively do, I'm not sure I have an answer there. But I know that ignoring the problem and/or pretending it doesn't exist will not make the problem actually go away.

[Phox]

Okay, it's priveleged. I'm supposed to be behaving in a more conscious manner, right? So how? How does making myself painfully aware of the possible fears and plights of people based on arbitrary factors that others won't chill the fuck out about do anything other than become a game of supposition and awareness?

So it's naive for me to want everyone to feel comfortably non-consciousness...as naive as wishing everyone gets a pony. So does that mean it's perpetuating unfairness if I ride around on my magic hosrie before everyone has one? Gallop around, blissfully offering rides to people who don't even own stables?

IS MY BATSHIT RHETORIC MAKING SENSE HERE?

I'm saying that I still have faith that I'm a passive part of the solution. My personality, awareness, attitudes and intent are all decent and okay. I don't wanna fight. I don't wanna sit around thinking about it. I just wanna gallop around in glee.

This isn't an economic reality thing where ignoring the problem makes me part of it so the Ferrari metaphor makes no sense. This is an attitude thing in which acceptance plays a huge role. Can't I just exist as an example of that (more or less, with some flaws that I correct as I see em) thereby adding to the body of the "not problem?"

Doesn't it take a bunch of star-bellied sneeches and plain-bellied sneeches alike going "it doesn't matter one way or another" to make the man with the machine leave the island?

You are not part of the problem (in a manner of speaking).

HOWEVER, that does not automatically make you part of the solution. What I'm getting from what you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you are content to basically act there isn't a problem at all. (Perhaps that's a bit of an oversimplification),

It's all well and good that you go around and you accept people, and go forward. However: You cannot grant your white privilege to someone else.

If you haven't done so, read that blog that Kai posted. It is VERY informative as to why a simple "But I'M not part of the problem" =/= part of the solution.

[navkat]

Okay, maybe we are miscommunicating here. When I say "I don't see race," I don't actually mean I'm an autistic colorblind person. I mean, I'm not registering it much differently than I am hair color or whatever else. What I'm seeing much more prominently are factors that are reflective of things over which they have some control.

Much more prominently.

Black/white has waaaaaay less to do with scary/friendly than behaviour, posture, clothing choices, etc.

Okay, maybe this is the problem. I go through life looking at people from the "might hurt me" versus "might turn out to be nice to me" perspective. I pretty much assume everyone is juging me. Maybe being The Weird Girl Nobody Liked makes me less equipped to understand what the big deal is. All I want are friends.

[navkat]

Okay, it's priveleged. I'm supposed to be behaving in a more conscious manner, right? So how? How does making myself painfully aware of the possible fears and plights of people based on arbitrary factors that others won't chill the fuck out about do anything other than become a game of supposition and awareness?

So it's naive for me to want everyone to feel comfortably non-consciousness...as naive as wishing everyone gets a pony. So does that mean it's perpetuating unfairness if I ride around on my magic hosrie before everyone has one? Gallop around, blissfully offering rides to people who don't even own stables?

IS MY BATSHIT RHETORIC MAKING SENSE HERE?

I'm saying that I still have faith that I'm a passive part of the solution. My personality, awareness, attitudes and intent are all decent and okay. I don't wanna fight. I don't wanna sit around thinking about it. I just wanna gallop around in glee.

This isn't an economic reality thing where ignoring the problem makes me part of it so the Ferrari metaphor makes no sense. This is an attitude thing in which acceptance plays a huge role. Can't I just exist as an example of that (more or less, with some flaws that I correct as I see em) thereby adding to the body of the "not problem?"

Doesn't it take a bunch of star-bellied sneeches and plain-bellied sneeches alike going "it doesn't matter one way or another" to make the man with the machine leave the island?

You are not part of the problem (in a manner of speaking).

HOWEVER, that does not automatically make you part of the solution. What I'm getting from what you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you are content to basically act there isn't a problem at all. (Perhaps that's a bit of an oversimplification),

It's all well and good that you go around and you accept people, and go forward. However: You cannot grant your white privilege to someone else.

If you haven't done so, read that blog that Kai posted. It is VERY informative as to why a simple "But I'M not part of the problem" =/= part of the solution.

I will. I've been working with the limitations of only a smartphone here so be patient with me.

[Phox]

Okay, it's priveleged. I'm supposed to be behaving in a more conscious manner, right? So how? How does making myself painfully aware of the possible fears and plights of people based on arbitrary factors that others won't chill the fuck out about do anything other than become a game of supposition and awareness?

So it's naive for me to want everyone to feel comfortably non-consciousness...as naive as wishing everyone gets a pony. So does that mean it's perpetuating unfairness if I ride around on my magic hosrie before everyone has one? Gallop around, blissfully offering rides to people who don't even own stables?

IS MY BATSHIT RHETORIC MAKING SENSE HERE?

I'm saying that I still have faith that I'm a passive part of the solution. My personality, awareness, attitudes and intent are all decent and okay. I don't wanna fight. I don't wanna sit around thinking about it. I just wanna gallop around in glee.

This isn't an economic reality thing where ignoring the problem makes me part of it so the Ferrari metaphor makes no sense. This is an attitude thing in which acceptance plays a huge role. Can't I just exist as an example of that (more or less, with some flaws that I correct as I see em) thereby adding to the body of the "not problem?"

Doesn't it take a bunch of star-bellied sneeches and plain-bellied sneeches alike going "it doesn't matter one way or another" to make the man with the machine leave the island?

You are not part of the problem (in a manner of speaking).

HOWEVER, that does not automatically make you part of the solution. What I'm getting from what you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you are content to basically act there isn't a problem at all. (Perhaps that's a bit of an oversimplification),

It's all well and good that you go around and you accept people, and go forward. However: You cannot grant your white privilege to someone else.

If you haven't done so, read that blog that Kai posted. It is VERY informative as to why a simple "But I'M not part of the problem" =/= part of the solution.

I will. I've been working with the limitations of only a smartphone here so be patient with me.

S'all good. There's no rush, it's just a damn good example of where I think the gap between your point of view on this and ours is coming from.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There is no such thing as a "passive solution". I am not trying to say that you are part of the problem, either, but it is small (well, no, really) consolation for a brown person to hear a white person say "I don't see race". Non-consciousness of race has its own set of bugaboos, one of which is that most people of color identify with their race(s). Even mixed people like me want to have those parts of our identities recognized, acknowledged, and validated, and this is probably more true for us than it is true for most white people because of the large amount of baggage that comes along with being colored and/or mixed.

Telling people that you are not conscious of race or racial identity has probably about the same effect on us as someone telling you (in person) that they hadn't noticed that you were female. It's hard to pin down why that feels dismissive, but a great many, maybe even most, people feel dismissed to have plainly perceivable key elements of their identities ignored.

Here is an example of how being colored is a factor: every person I meet will at some point ask me what my ethnic heritage is. I have been asked probably thousands of times. This is a normal and expected part of my life. Most of the time it is a pleasant exchange, but sometimes it is not. Absolutely not one single person, including all the many many great people I've known who say they don't see race, has failed to ask me what my heritage is.

Another example: because of the current social discomfort around Latin American immigrants, I have noticed that people have started treating me differently. I look Mexican, sort of maybe.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Ech and nigel- a couple of weeks ago i was in a social situation where someone who i know is not antisemitic made a really bad jewish joke and someone caught me rolling my eyes and said oh kevin didnt like that and the joke teller (an irish immigrant who knows im irish) said oh.... Are you jewish? And i went yeah i am. And he was like sorry i didnt mean it that way (and he meant that he was just telling a bad blue collar joke). I had him going for about a half hour and he thought about it and he asked kevin how are you jewish if youre irish? (apparently i caused a lot of introspection ) and i explained if your mother is jewish you are too. He considered it nodded looked like he felt bad and i said im fucking with you. I was raised catholic  by two irish catholics but i converted to celtic neopaganism. I just wanted you to be more mindful about your sense of humor.