Author Topic: Labels imply products, right...?  (Read 6150 times)

navkat

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2012, 02:59:45 pm »
Search is borked, but I recall a BIP thread on compartamentalizing, and why we do it.  I usually start with Korzybski's riff about how "leaf" is actually a meta-generalization that's composed of leaf1, leaf2, leaf3, and so on.  When you're referring to a leaf in general it doesn't actually exist; it's a semantic box that holds many many different things that can be called "leaf".

Ok, that's pretty obvious when you think about it, because if we couldn't meta-generalize, the experiential world would be an infinite amount of individual things that have no relation to each other.  Language couldn't really exist, because every experience would need a different word to describe it.  Btw, this may also be related to Hofstadter's "high-level chunking".

Where I think the problem the OP describes arises when this sort of labelling goes beyond the physical and into the mental and ideological.  Because there's no direct physical experience to connect to, we can make that box as big as we want to -- and sometimes it becomes bigger than we realize.  And due to the "is of identity" problem that RAW and others are always so keen to point out, when we label the idological box, we naturally start wanting to be that box.  This leads to echo chambers, cookie-cutter arguments, and self-deception.

I think I need a mini-LMNO inside my mouf to say what I mean because you're better at saying what I mean than I am.

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2012, 03:06:59 pm »
Congrats.  You just got a
:lmnuendo:

Oysters Rockefeller

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2012, 04:20:09 pm »
Or when asking for advice (read: looking for approval) people ask questions like, "Am I just some evil Nazi bastard for thinking this?" Instead of "Am I overstepping my bounds?" "Are my expectations unreasonable?"

This is a really good example I wouldn't have thought of. Because saying things like "Am I being a bitch?" almost assures that your friend is going to say "no." Because being a bitch sounds so much words than having unreasonable expectations. But on the other hand, it is probably what the speaker wants to be least, so it makes since that the question would be phrased that way.

From what I understood out of LMNOs post, he hit the nail on the head. We aren't being accurate or unbiased when we say things like "pro-life" or "pro-choice." And not only is it self-deception, but it's deceiving others by applying a negative or unwanted moral code to the opposition. Gun owners are psychopaths and gun control types hate freedom.
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Elder Iptuous

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 04:38:05 pm »
we choose labels that we feel highlight the most important aspects of the argument.  why would we do any differently?

the pro-choice people feel that the crux of the matter is one of personal freedom and liberty to determine your own fate.  the fact that killing a baby terminating an embryo is involved is subordinate in the argument.  when a label is needed to identify their stand, why would they choose anything other than what highlights their point?

the pro-life people, likewise, feel that the crux of the matter is the fetus baby.  why would they choose a label to identify their position as anything other than concern for the death of the babies.

the fact that these labels are frustrating due to them talking past each other is unavoidable since they represent separate but mutually exclusive arguments.  the pro-lifers aren't pro-oppression, and the pro-choicers aren't pro-murder.  they simply weight the values differently and use terminology to justify/highlight their positions.

it all seems perfectly natural, intractable, and, from a disinterested perspective, beautiful.

that last bit is key though.  gun control advocates are quite clearly freedom hating milquetoasts that somehow weaseled their way to influence, and we should kill them all for claiming that we are psychopaths.

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2012, 04:42:11 pm »
I feel like, although there is a bit of wiggle room, manipulation and deception are near synonymous. They both involve a willfull attempt to coerce somebody into a personally advantageous situation through false means.

I mean, I didn't type this up to argue about words.

Ah....wait...that's exactly what I did.

Well, we can say deceive if you like. But I would argue there is a multitidue of uses for language. Description, legitimate persuasion, entertainment, gaining knowledge, etc.


ETA: I said "without intending to" above, and "willfull" afterwards. I hope you can understand my general meaning nonetheless.

This is an issue of semantics, really, but from the very beginning, we attempt to manipulate our environment and the people around us. Language is a tool for communication, so we use it to manipulate the people around us.

Quote
ma·nip·u·late/məˈnipyəˌlāt/
Verb:   

    Handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner: "he manipulated the dials".
    Alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


navkat

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2012, 04:48:07 pm »
we choose labels that we feel highlight the most important aspects of the argument.  why would we do any differently?

the pro-choice people feel that the crux of the matter is one of personal freedom and liberty to determine your own fate.  the fact that killing a baby terminating an embryo is involved is subordinate in the argument.  when a label is needed to identify their stand, why would they choose anything other than what highlights their point?

the pro-life people, likewise, feel that the crux of the matter is the fetus baby.  why would they choose a label to identify their position as anything other than concern for the death of the babies.

the fact that these labels are frustrating due to them talking past each other is unavoidable since they represent separate but mutually exclusive arguments.  the pro-lifers aren't pro-oppression, and the pro-choicers aren't pro-murder.  they simply weight the values differently and use terminology to justify/highlight their positions.

it all seems perfectly natural, intractable, and, from a disinterested perspective, beautiful.



Love this. Well fucking put.

Quote
that last bit is key though.  gun control advocates are quite clearly freedom hating milquetoasts that somehow weaseled their way to influence,

True.

Quote
and we should kill them all for claiming that we are psychopaths.

I don't think they really want to kill...wai...I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE.


Elder Iptuous

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2012, 04:50:29 pm »
ya.  that was my point.
i guess 'manipulate' has deceptive subtext in a given context, though.
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.
but when given the lofty context of language in general, i tend to think of the technical definition you present.

navkat

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2012, 05:01:03 pm »


Quote
ma·nip·u·late/məˈnipyəˌlāt/
Verb:   

    Handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner: "he manipulated the dials".
    Alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.

To be fair:
Quote
transitive verb
1
: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2
a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3
: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

Yes, there is another connotation of the word for a reason...because sometimes people cross the line into being deliberately devious and obfuscatory about it.

and THIS wraps up your point in itself. THIS is why not censoring the language and letting people make their point in the way that suits them, even if the connotations of the language they choose seems biased to you is so fucking important. It's one of the most beloved points about Orwell's "newspeak" concept: without a mutually understood word to validate and symbolize a concept, you may as well delete the concept from people's minds.

"I don't want the government telling me NOT to take drugs because I have the right to have fun!" says little.
"Cognitive Liberty" says volumes. It makes your opponents have to take a moment to phrase their argument in a way that addresses the concept of having the right to control the thoughts in your head through the use of (or refusal to use) chemicals.

Oysters Rockefeller

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2012, 05:49:39 pm »
we choose labels that we feel highlight the most important aspects of the argument.  why would we do any differently?

the pro-choice people feel that the crux of the matter is one of personal freedom and liberty to determine your own fate.  the fact that killing a baby terminating an embryo is involved is subordinate in the argument.  when a label is needed to identify their stand, why would they choose anything other than what highlights their point?

Actually, that's a really good point that I didn't consider. But, at the same time, I don't think that "pro-life" doesn't imply "pro-death." And the fact that pro-life types called pro-choice types baby-killers is fairly self-explanatory. But I suppose what I'd take away from this is that calling that kind of language just deceitful is actually incorrect. It also puts forth a legitimate arguement. Learn somethin' new every day.

and THIS wraps up your point in itself. THIS is why not censoring the language and letting people make their point in the way that suits them, even if the connotations of the language they choose seems biased to you is so fucking important.


Woah, I hope that's not what you thought I was argueing. I find the whole labels topic more funny than I do offensive. But I like your point.

"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.

If only...
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Doktor Howl

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2012, 05:51:05 pm »
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.

In my experience, 90% of the time, that's exactly what the person saying it means.
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Elder Iptuous

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2012, 05:57:30 pm »
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.

In my experience, 90% of the time, that's exactly what the person saying it means.
hehe. point.
they usually have the view that the woman is deceptive in pretending to be a lady, when in fact, she is acting the part of a man, what with all that uppity self determination and opinion holding and all...

Doktor Howl

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2012, 06:01:38 pm »
"that manipulative bitch!" generally doesn't mean a young woman of exceptional ability to handle or control the environment around her.

In my experience, 90% of the time, that's exactly what the person saying it means.
hehe. point.
they usually have the view that the woman is deceptive in pretending to be a lady, when in fact, she is acting the part of a man, what with all that uppity self determination and opinion holding and all...

Pretty much.

I was at a party back in Chicago, probably around 1986, and two aquatences of mine were having a conversation.

Mike:  Let's do such-and-such this way.

Krista:  No, I think we should probably do it THIS way, because that way will cost more than I can afford.

Mike:  But I have it all planned out.

Krista:  Well, you probably should have asked me before you planned how I was going to participate.

Mike then walks up to me, and says "What a domineering bitch".
"Daisy had syphilis, Tom died of genital warts, and Nick Carroway watched it all in mounting horror, then made off with the silverware and the maid."
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navkat

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2012, 06:18:52 pm »
 :argh!:

I have a general problem in my hetero relationships where in all things, the assumed default is he's right and we're doing it that way unless I can pose a good, logical set of reasons why we shouldn't or that my way is better.

Most of them are amiable about it, even encouraging me to come up with a good reason and willing to change course but the assumption is that this is the way we do things unless. I tend to be very passive in my relationships so I know my personality type sort of reinforces (and having an asymmetrical dynamic is not necessarily a bad thing) this but it does become annoying from time to time and can be outright frustrating during an argument because I'm already starting out with the "burden of proof" from the start.

Conversely, in an arrangement where the woman is the "leader" in many areas of the hetero relationship, it is commonly viewed as "she's got him by the balls."

Doktor Howl

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2012, 06:21:16 pm »
Conversely, in an arrangement where the woman is the "leader" in many areas of the hetero relationship, it is commonly viewed as "she's got him by the balls."

For some reason, this is considered a bad thing.

 :fap:

Yowza!

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Oysters Rockefeller

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Re: Labels imply products, right...?
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2012, 06:30:04 pm »
Ah, it's even worse than that. At least in the south. If a man ever does anything for a woman just out of kindness or blackmail or whatever, then it's automatically a she has him by the balls type thing.

People can preach about equality in one breath and say that women who wear pants go to hell in the next (that was a real conversation I had. For real real).

Although, where I live, many women are just as bad about holding back gender equality as a lot of men are. You'd think they were trying to become the subject of a snoop dogg song.
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