Author Topic: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!  (Read 100697 times)

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #540 on: August 15, 2012, 09:06:32 pm »
I thought this was all about principle.  I listened, because I was wrong and Garbo and Nigel were right.

Then this.  This hypocrisy.

I can't fucking stand it.
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Juana

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #541 on: August 15, 2012, 09:07:27 pm »
When I say "cis man tears", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some men have where their response to "hey, let's work to end sex and gender based discrimination, a lot of which is aimed at women" with "what about meee?" or "feminism makes me feel attacked!". It's frustrating and disheartening. I know not all cis men are like this. I think most men, if they were willing to listen and stop the immediate butthurt, wouldn't be prone to it.

Tone policing is "you're not being polite enough!" when no one has been rude. It's frustrating and a way to shut the discussion down.

Well, if I can't understand, then I'm not gonna try.

Game point, SP wins.
Empathy is not the same as understand, precisely. You get it intellectually, but you literally do not live it. You don't deal with the same reality we do, every day of our lives. If a man can't empathize with that (and I do know most of the guys here do, Roger, we've talked about this enough and I'm talking men in general), then I don't know what to do with him.


I thought this was all about principle.  I listened, because I was wrong and Garbo and Nigel were right.

Then this.  This hypocrisy.

I can't fucking stand it.
How is it hypocrisy?

edited to for clarity.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 09:09:01 pm by Secret Agent GARBO »
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #542 on: August 15, 2012, 09:08:53 pm »
When I say "cis man tears", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some men have

When I say "feminazi", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some women have

When I say "cunt", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some women have

When I say "fag", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some gay people have


I never, ever expected this.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Anna Mae Bollocks

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #543 on: August 15, 2012, 09:12:24 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

Hm, I've been on the run so I haven't read the whole thread.
I have this feeling about this word Cis, though. A though actually. And it's a bit rambly but essentially boils down to:

Yeah no.

Labels are inherently devisive.  I don't refer to Robert Jackson at work as "my Black coworker."  I don't refer to Anthony as "My Gay friend."  I don't refer to my doctor as "my male doctor/my female doctor".  The only time labels are important is when the label itself is relevant to the conversation, and FUCK ANYONE who says I don't get an opinion on elgatarianism unless I'm female or Gay, or that my opinion is of less value for that reason.



How do you view using race or sex as a way to differentiate among others in a group?

As in:

Person 1: Oh that's my friend best friend over there
Person 2: Which one?
Person 1: The black one
or
Person 1: The woman

I ask because to discern based on those characteristics is rather convenient but also divisive and to NOT do so is, also, in a sense, using the characteristic as a basis to NOT do so. Does that make sense?

Also, for whatever reason,  for Person 1 to say "The gay one" seems more wrong that the previous two...maybe.

Okay I think my brain just exploded....

If skin color or gender is being pointed out as a means of physical description, then I don't see a problem.  In fact, if that is in fact the best way to accomplish the description, then it is IMO just another form of discrimination to NOT use the appropriate term.

Yep. It works like this: Is a physical description necessary?

"There's somebody in the restroom" = OK
"There's a black guy in the restroom" = NOT OK

"A guy left this here. He'll probably be back looking for it."
"OK, what does he look like?"
"Tall, light-skinned black guy with glasses. Had a red shirt on earler."
"Alright"                                                                                         = OK

"Some BLACK GUY left this here" = NOT OK

Etc.

Quote
And another thing:  It's not just that I say FUCK YOU if my opinion is lessened by the fact that I am a male and "CIS", it's that EVERYONE, regardless of labels, should say FUCK YOU if their opinion is lessened by an entirely irrelevant issue, such as gender, race, or orientation, because if someone DOES that, then they are buying into exactly the same mindset that they think they're fighting.

In other words, I don't accept Signora Paesor's authority on the subject, and nobody should accept mine.

THINK FOR YOUR FUCKING SELF.

But we're supposed to HAET YUO because we is TEH SHE WOMAN MAN HATERZ CLUB. Fishes and bicycles and all that shit. :vom:
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #544 on: August 15, 2012, 09:13:59 pm »
Empathy is not the same as understand, precisely. You get it intellectually, but you literally do not live it. You don't deal with the same reality we do, every day of our lives. If a man can't empathize with that (and I do know most of the guys here do, Roger, we've talked about this enough and I'm talking men in general), then I don't know what to do with him.

Oh, sure.  Like when I was 17, I was told that certain catagories of people were "the enemy" and thus were not actually human, so it was okay to shoot them.  As for the civilians in the area, we had a running cadence that started "napalm sticks to kids".  So I knocked around the world for a decade or so, operating under that information loop.  Once I was old enough to know better, I had a better grip on what I did to whom, and why. 

So let me tell you, I have NO IDEA what the consequences of non-eglatarian thinking are.  None at all.  I am a fucking babe in the woods, crying out my little "CIS man tears" over some little, unimportant things that resulted from bad signal concerning equality among humans.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Don Coyote

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #545 on: August 15, 2012, 09:16:21 pm »
Anyone else here think "cis" is a fucking retarded term?
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #546 on: August 15, 2012, 09:16:53 pm »
When I say "cis man tears", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some men have where their response to "hey, let's work to end sex and gender based discrimination, a lot of which is aimed at women" with "what about meee?" or "feminism makes me feel attacked!". It's frustrating and disheartening. I know not all cis men are like this. I think most men, if they were willing to listen and stop the immediate butthurt, wouldn't be prone to it.

Tone policing is "you're not being polite enough!" when no one has been rude. It's frustrating and a way to shut the discussion down.


Are you suggesting there is an element here on PD.com that is suggesting you're not being polite?
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Does referring to men who make these assumptions as one group somehow prevent what causes that behavior? Does it make your frustration any less?

I think the term has some validity. But I think you're using it as an offensive tool because you're upset that you have to explain why "feminism" is the only applicable word.
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Juana

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #547 on: August 15, 2012, 09:21:50 pm »
This has gone from a discussion about how men are also harmed by the patriarchy, to a rather interesting examination of views on language previously taken for granted, to an explanation of the following (from 3 users):

1.  Men can't understand.
2.  Men can't be trusted.
3.  Allies are not desired.  Put on the whole uniform or GTFO.
4.  "Decent men" are needed for support, which assumes that "decent" isn't the default position.
5.  Men somehow want to join the "club of the oppressed".

This conversation is now a self-parody, and cannot - in its present form - have any possible desirable outcome.  It is no longer about eglatarianism, it is now the sort of thing that is used as ammunition by people opposed to feminism.

The upside is, before it turned into a pissing contest, I got one good thing out of it (thanks, Garbo).
1. Empathy is not the same as understanding. I'm sorry, but I'm not backing off this point. You don't spend every day of your life being scared that you'll be raped or attacked or blamed for it if it happens. But you can empathize with it. I know you do.

2. I never said that and I'm not sure where you might be reading that into things.

3. Totally not what I said. The opposite, in fact. We need allies. We need allies who are willing to listen. That's not a uniform. I don't even know what kind of uniform you'd think I'm asking a guy to don.

4. My default is that most men are generally decent people. I don't know where you got this.

5. Not what I said.



When I say "cis man tears", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some men have

When I say "feminazi", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some women have

When I say "cunt", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some women have

When I say "fag", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some gay people have


I never, ever expected this.
Perhaps it was harsh and it wasn't intended to be a personal attack aimed at anyone but Pent (who is perfectly right if he wants to take it up with me). I repeated myself for ten pages yesterday, got no actual counter arguments, and then there was "feminism makes me feel attacked!". I'm really, really frustrated with this. I don't think its unreasonable to be tired of being told I'm wrong endlessly and never given a valid why.

Also, how is the "fag" example even remotely related?

When I say "cis man tears", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some men have where their response to "hey, let's work to end sex and gender based discrimination, a lot of which is aimed at women" with "what about meee?" or "feminism makes me feel attacked!". It's frustrating and disheartening. I know not all cis men are like this. I think most men, if they were willing to listen and stop the immediate butthurt, wouldn't be prone to it.

Tone policing is "you're not being polite enough!" when no one has been rude. It's frustrating and a way to shut the discussion down.


Are you suggesting there is an element here on PD.com that is suggesting you're not being polite?
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Does referring to men who make these assumptions as one group somehow prevent what causes that behavior? Does it make your frustration any less?

I think the term has some validity. But I think you're using it as an offensive tool because you're upset that you have to explain why "feminism" is the only applicable word.
Uh, Pent did, actually.

Not really. But logically explaining it without the term hasn't done a damn thing.

It's been discussed into the ground.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #548 on: August 15, 2012, 09:23:44 pm »

Also, how is the "fag" example even remotely related?

The underlying principle is identical.  You stuck a segment of the population into a little box.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #549 on: August 15, 2012, 09:24:38 pm »
Anyone else here think "cis" is a fucking retarded term?

Since the first night I googled it to see WTF people meant by it.

It also sounds like "Sis". Kind of emasculating. Might even be intentional.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #550 on: August 15, 2012, 09:25:13 pm »
Anyone else here think "cis" is a fucking retarded term?

Since the first night I googled it to see WTF people meant by it.

It also sounds like "Sis". Kind of emasculating. Might even be intentional.

It's just the next "You People".
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #551 on: August 15, 2012, 09:29:16 pm »
Anyone else here think "cis" is a fucking retarded term?

Since the first night I googled it to see WTF people meant by it.

It also sounds like "Sis". Kind of emasculating. Might even be intentional.

It's just the next "You People".

Yep.

I think everything defaulted to MAIN again.  :x
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Juana

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #552 on: August 15, 2012, 09:30:54 pm »
"Hey there, I see that you're currently victim to the horrors of Auschwitz. I can imagine how that must feel for you. While not a resident myself,  I am going to tell you all about Auschwitz as the local authority on Auschwitz. What's that? No, I think you're wrong about that detail. Why does that upset you? How come your side of the Auschwitz yay or nay argument is the best and I have to listen to you? If you want your situation to get better, you need to be more respectful towards people who aren't in Auschwitz when they explain Auschwitz to you.What do you mean I can't be an official Auschwitz ally if I go about misrepresenting Auschwitz and insist that the interpretation from within is somehow invalid?" to expand on the already fairly dangerous comparison.

Roger, I'm not reading that into it at all. Maybe I'm more familiar with the positions being represented here and there's a miscommunication I'm reading past. Comparing quotes of statements to those of replies and interpretations is a bit beyond the capabilities of my phone, but the thread reads like "men can absolutely be helpful and involved but cannot be primary sources on the experiences of women", "hey, fuck you for excluding me."
This!
The bolded bit is what "cis man tears" was about. That's what "feminism makes me feel attacked!" and "let's stop calling it feminism because I feel left out!" is about.
(if you don't want the word to be used against you, then don't freak out. Listen. Stop jumping to conclusions. Accept that you might need to change your behavior and that maybe even though you ARE generally feminist, there's maybe some areas you need to work on).

Anyone else here think "cis" is a fucking retarded term?

Since the first night I googled it to see WTF people meant by it.

It also sounds like "Sis". Kind of emasculating. Might even be intentional.

It's just the next "You People".
I don't think it is. I have no idea why that term was chosen to represent that idea, but it was. *shrug* I have some issues with the term, but they go in a different direction than is relevant to this discussion.

I don't think it was deliberately emasculating. Also, the term applies to women, too. Not just men.

No, it doesn't. It's a term to differentiate between trans* people from people whose gender identity matches their bodies. Most people are cis, it's true. But it's not pejorative. It's just a word.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #553 on: August 15, 2012, 09:36:07 pm »
"Hey there, I see that you're currently victim to the horrors of Auschwitz. I can imagine how that must feel for you. While not a resident myself,  I am going to tell you all about Auschwitz as the local authority on Auschwitz. What's that? No, I think you're wrong about that detail. Why does that upset you? How come your side of the Auschwitz yay or nay argument is the best and I have to listen to you? If you want your situation to get better, you need to be more respectful towards people who aren't in Auschwitz when they explain Auschwitz to you.What do you mean I can't be an official Auschwitz ally if I go about misrepresenting Auschwitz and insist that the interpretation from within is somehow invalid?" to expand on the already fairly dangerous comparison.

Roger, I'm not reading that into it at all. Maybe I'm more familiar with the positions being represented here and there's a miscommunication I'm reading past. Comparing quotes of statements to those of replies and interpretations is a bit beyond the capabilities of my phone, but the thread reads like "men can absolutely be helpful and involved but cannot be primary sources on the experiences of women", "hey, fuck you for excluding me."
This!
The bolded bit is what "cis man tears" was about. That's what "feminism makes me feel attacked!" and "let's stop calling it feminism because I feel left out!" is about.
(if you don't want the word to be used against you, then don't freak out. Listen. Stop jumping to conclusions. Accept that you might need to change your behavior and that maybe even though you ARE generally feminist, there's maybe some areas you need to work on).

gah, the point I was trying to make but failed.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #554 on: August 15, 2012, 09:38:04 pm »
"Hey there, I see that you're currently victim to the horrors of Auschwitz. I can imagine how that must feel for you. While not a resident myself,  I am going to tell you all about Auschwitz as the local authority on Auschwitz. What's that? No, I think you're wrong about that detail. Why does that upset you? How come your side of the Auschwitz yay or nay argument is the best and I have to listen to you? If you want your situation to get better, you need to be more respectful towards people who aren't in Auschwitz when they explain Auschwitz to you.What do you mean I can't be an official Auschwitz ally if I go about misrepresenting Auschwitz and insist that the interpretation from within is somehow invalid?" to expand on the already fairly dangerous comparison.

Roger, I'm not reading that into it at all. Maybe I'm more familiar with the positions being represented here and there's a miscommunication I'm reading past. Comparing quotes of statements to those of replies and interpretations is a bit beyond the capabilities of my phone, but the thread reads like "men can absolutely be helpful and involved but cannot be primary sources on the experiences of women", "hey, fuck you for excluding me."

That, of course, has nothing to do with anything I said.

It does, however, bring up an interesting question:  Why are men supposed to be incapable of being primary sources on eglatarianism?  Or is the current definition (in this thread) of feminism gone from "eglatarianism" to "Women's historical and current problems"?

I've heard both definitions of feminism.  One is inclusive, and one is exclusive.  I prefer the inclusive version that states a goal of "all people of all genders, races, and orientations are and should be considered equal members in society".
We don't live in an egalitarian society, so no, you can't because it doesn't exist yet. To be a primary source, you have to experience it.
I prefer the inclusive definition, too, but I really want to point out that the current/historical problems thing is valid and hasn't been solved yet.


Argh. This thread is tangled in knots now. Which is partially my fault. I probably should have held my temper better. I'll probably try to untangle them after I catch up.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."