Author Topic: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!  (Read 97810 times)

P3nT4gR4m

  • Official SSOOKN Pariah
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 15293
  • I'm an artist now - isn't that depressing?
    • View Profile
    • fuck you
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #510 on: August 15, 2012, 07:20:46 pm »
So in response to the OP - Patriarchy is not the enemy. Patriarchy is one of the tools of oppression that the actual enemy uses to keep us down, to keep us fighting amongst ourselves. Contrary to popular belief patriarchy does not empower all men to the exclusion of all women. Some women are a fucking sight better off than some men.
I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and itís not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesnít matter." -- Max Tegmark

Salty

  • Anarcho-Kardashian, Prophet
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 6032
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #511 on: August 15, 2012, 07:22:30 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 90457
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #512 on: August 15, 2012, 07:23:06 pm »
So in response to the OP - Patriarchy is not the enemy. Patriarchy is one of the tools of oppression that the actual enemy uses to keep us down, to keep us fighting amongst ourselves. Contrary to popular belief patriarchy does not empower all men to the exclusion of all women. Some women are a fucking sight better off than some men.

Yes, but the overall trend is that women have it a lot worse than men.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 90457
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #513 on: August 15, 2012, 07:24:54 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Bu🤠ns

  • █ ▀█ ▀ █ ▀█▄ ▀█
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 4818
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #514 on: August 15, 2012, 07:28:37 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

FTR, the idea you presented about egalitarianism and it's role in feminism created a dynamic shift in my brain toward my overall attitude toward feminism in general.

Salty

  • Anarcho-Kardashian, Prophet
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 6032
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #515 on: August 15, 2012, 07:29:28 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

Hm, I've been on the run so I haven't read the whole thread.
I have this feeling about this word Cis, though. A though actually. And it's a bit rambly but essentially boils down to:

Yeah no. 

I generally lump humans into three categories:
Would take on exudos ship with me.
Would feel bad about definitely leaving behind.
And
Would not piss out the airlock to put out if were left trapped on burning planet.

I thought I had, on this very forum, attained the understanding that your meat is not who you are. In fact, I thought the primary objective of feminism was to live in a society where people are judged by their brains as opposed to their genitals. Within that is the nuanced idea that you can't even judge people on the genitals they EXPRESS whether they have them or not. 

Because people are more complicated than straight* dichotomy allows. cis vs trans is an important tool of discussion, to be sure. But how easily does it transfer to an idea shaped more like cabbage vs non cabbage. 

I mean, if we are going to use linguistic tools to separate people into groups of lesser than capable of certain qualities based on the external expression of their genitals...

Why don't we begin with listing all the way in which a vagina puts one at a disadvantage when performing certain tasks and functions of society and eliminate them based on practical reasons why those "disadvantages" are incorrect. 

Personally, I'd rather just give everyone an equal opportunity and then let the more capable rise to the top. That above scenario offends me because it implies a need for one whole group of people offer proof of their lack of assumed deficiencies BEFORE they have opportunity. It's not fair to ask of anyone. 

Because as far as I can tell people are either capable, or they aren't. Capable of understanding, capable of acting, capable of giving a shit, or not. 

So, when you say cis man this, trans girl that I mostly tune out. Unless they're getting beat to death. In which case, again, I'm less than concerned with the way they express their genitals. 

If: "You are what you do." then WTF?

Gender is so much more complicated than that dichotomy. 

Naturally men have to listen to women about feminism. But to not allow for EQUAL two way traffic there seems totally fucking stupid. 


*lol
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 90457
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #516 on: August 15, 2012, 07:31:34 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

FTR, the idea you presented about egalitarianism and it's role in feminism created a dynamic shift in my brain toward my overall attitude toward feminism in general.

That's not quite what I was concentrating on.  I was concentrating on the fact that it has to be a personal value, not a crusade.  Personal values lead to principled stands.  Crusades lead to exclusionary thinking at best.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Pope Pixie Pickle

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 4764
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #517 on: August 15, 2012, 07:33:55 pm »
I mentioned why I felt that guys involved with feminism need to listen to women in feminism, because of the history of marginalisation, in the last post I made.

But we don't.  At least, I don't.

I have listened to individuals (Garbo and Nigel) who have pointed out flaws in my worldview.  On occasion, I have changed my worldview.

But it wasn't because they were women.  It was because they were right and I was wrong.

And I don't need to listen to anyone about anything to be an elgatarianist.  I have a very firm view there, based on entirely different experiences than you've had...That has informed me of everything I need to know, in the simplest terms possible.

PeeDee is a place that listens to others experiences, and thinks on them. It's why I've been here over 3 years.   

I'm quite fond of Gloria Stienem's quote "The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off!"

I'd like it better if it had come from someplace less batshit than Steinemville.  :lol: Coming from her, it reminds me of Fizzly Grizzly: "HURR HURR, U MAD?" She's always had a tendency to dig her heels in and come up with some kind of slogan or bullshit when she's got nothing else. See my other post with the Stossell interview. A woman can be an effective firefighter and find ways of working around the upper-body strength thing, but she's not a better firefighter than a man simply because she's a woman, in spite what Steinem was trying to argue.

Quote
Being oppressed is traumatic and obviously terrible. But it also can have the effect of turning people sour and seeking revenge. This is fact, and nobody is above it. See: ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY. Being oppressed does not lend itself to giving a balanced view of the situation even if that oppression ends. Whole nations of humans have formed for the specific purpose of seeking revenge for oppression - and they do it, and they're no better than their oppressors were, but they don't see it, because their ability to be fair has been violated and destroyed by the original oppression.

I'm not saying feminism is necessarily going to go down this path, but it's possible (and you can't really say it's impossible without being self-righteous and just plain wrong). So it seems to me that feminism needs detached, outside opinions and observations in order to keep that possibility in check.

Saying things like "men don't/can't understand" or "a man's view is inherently inferior or inadequate" or that it must "take a back seat" to a woman's opinions is evidence of that counter-oppressive possibility.

Um, no, dude. We are saying that often (not all the time and not by all men) our experiences are minimised and brushed off as Not That Big A Deal, (see Street Harrassment, Mr Handsy deemed "harmless", being told that the boy in class when your six is hitting you because "he likes you".) because of this factor, and society treating angry women as something not to be taken seriously or "PERIODS LOL!" that the net effect of this is that although I DEARLY WOULD LOVE MEN TO BE MORE FEMINIST/ PRO-FEMINIST and decent dudes, there is a history of being marginalised, and that more of the same isn't what we want.  Hence the listening/taking a back seat/letting women frame the goals.  It's like planning moving house and telling someone where all the stuff needs to go, they may be doing all the heavy lifting, but if they ignore me and put the sofa in the kitchen I'm screwed if they leave and don't put it right.  Ok that analogy sucked a little.  All I would like from guys involved with feminism is that they recognise the marginalisation, and try not to let there be more of the same in their actions and those around them.

Everybody's experiences get "minimised and brushed off as Not That Big A Deal". Switch the six year olds and the boy who is being tormented by a girl is not only told that "she likes him", but possibly ridiculed for "whining" about it.

If the sofa is in the kitchen, I can push and drag it to where I want it. It's harder for me, but I'm not "screwed". I got a fucking pool table across the street a few weeks ago, FFS. The next day my daughter and another woman packed it up the steps and left it in the kitchen. This had nothing to do with me being a woman. I now have a bigass pool table in the kitchen, and when it cools off a bit here, I'll turn it sideways and shove it through a couple of doorways to the front room. Or just find some guys to move it. We don't always put stuff where guys want it, either. I can't attibute every incident of people not listening to sexism.

I did say it was a shitty analogy, especially since I failed to mention that my kitchen is fucking tiny.

I'm also slipping into the mode of argument I have away from PeeDee here, where some people I know are just fucking idiots. Sorry about that, I should probably not slip into "my standard argument" around people I know that know better.


Seriously, I can count the non-asshole people I interact with regularly without moving onto my toes. I'm surrounded by these frakking douches!
It seems to me that it's not necessarily about male vs. female so much as it's about the way in which Patriarchy hurts both males and females.  What doesn't really work for me is how there's this term, "male tears" that seems to be assumed when someone brings up the idea that men too are hurt by Patriarchy. 

Being a male, the idea of fully egalitarian viewpoint, makes more sense than only focusing on the effects of a patriarchal society has on women.  It seems that the opposition isn't just men or even misogynistic men, but it's ourselves and our own fundamental assumptions about each of our roles in our society. 

To be perfectly clear, after reading this thread (and some other sources), I'm fully convinced that feminism raises legitimate concerns.  This fight involves everyone but the dynamic of how it affects men and how it affects women is what differs.  And, thus far, it seems women definitely get hurt to a larger extent.  To reach that egalitarian ideal, however, it's about finding ways to address both sides.

I have to admit, though, I'm not fully convinced of this notion of 'male privilege'. Please understand, I believe it exists in many forms, i.e. the pay rate and the concept of a rape culture to name a (big) few. But it looks like the way it's measured leaves out of the further reaching consequences of it's role in oppressing men (read: all of society) as well. This thread is about exposing how Patriarchy hurts men also.  This isn't 'male tears' because the following examples directly or indirectly also hurt females based on their ensuing behaviors.

-lack of male nurses
-the lack of male teachers
-how it's 'unmanly' to show emotions
-male sexual and domestic assault victims
-the lack of a balanced household of a father who is never around (anecdotal, but still)
-the fact that men are more likely to be recruited into the military to die for the country.
-expectation to 'man up'
-nice guy syndrome (or undefined expectations resulting in manipulative behavior).
-promotion of binary gender roles.
-sexual prowess as a measure of one's worth.

In all, I have to question a lot of the buzzwords associated with feminism.  If this really is the age of Third Wave feminism, a lot of the terms resonate with first and second wave.  I don't propose to get rid of any of them, but I definitely think that it would immensely help to define the terms more carefully. 

The oppressed are largely female but not exclusively. 

And the fight, isn't against another group but against our own basic assumptions.

So please to deconstruct.
 

Burns has it pretty spot on here, if he'd posted further upthread the discussion might have been over by now.  To me Male Privilege is the ability to do the whole life thing without being hyper vigilant about rape and sexual assault, the pay gap thing, the ability to not have your entire career take a massive leap back because you've had a kid. 
I like this term Kyriarchy. It seems to describe the far more complex and shifting reality, as compared to the more static perception that feminism, racism, etc lend themselves to.

I definitely prefer it over patriarchy as a term... 





"YOU SAY CULTURAL MARXISM LIKE IT'S A BAD THING"

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 90457
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #518 on: August 15, 2012, 07:45:01 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

Hm, I've been on the run so I haven't read the whole thread.
I have this feeling about this word Cis, though. A though actually. And it's a bit rambly but essentially boils down to:

Yeah no.

Labels are inherently devisive.  I don't refer to Robert Jackson at work as "my Black coworker."  I don't refer to Anthony as "My Gay friend."  I don't refer to my doctor as "my male doctor/my female doctor".  The only time labels are important is when the label itself is relevant to the conversation, and FUCK ANYONE who says I don't get an opinion on elgatarianism unless I'm female or Gay, or that my opinion is of less value for that reason.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Bu🤠ns

  • █ ▀█ ▀ █ ▀█▄ ▀█
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 4818
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #519 on: August 15, 2012, 07:47:28 pm »
To me Male Privilege is the ability to do the whole life thing without being hyper vigilant about rape and sexual assault, the pay gap thing, the ability to not have your entire career take a massive leap back because you've had a kid. 

I appreciate your being specific because I fully support that 100%



What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

FTR, the idea you presented about egalitarianism and it's role in feminism created a dynamic shift in my brain toward my overall attitude toward feminism in general.

That's not quite what I was concentrating on.  I was concentrating on the fact that it has to be a personal value, not a crusade.  Personal values lead to principled stands.  Crusades lead to exclusionary thinking at best.

That is one of the examples which lead to my shift.


P3nT4gR4m

  • Official SSOOKN Pariah
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 15293
  • I'm an artist now - isn't that depressing?
    • View Profile
    • fuck you
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #520 on: August 15, 2012, 07:53:48 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

Hm, I've been on the run so I haven't read the whole thread.
I have this feeling about this word Cis, though. A though actually. And it's a bit rambly but essentially boils down to:

Yeah no.

Labels are inherently devisive.  I don't refer to Robert Jackson at work as "my Black coworker."  I don't refer to Anthony as "My Gay friend."  I don't refer to my doctor as "my male doctor/my female doctor".  The only time labels are important is when the label itself is relevant to the conversation, and FUCK ANYONE who says I don't get an opinion on elgatarianism unless I'm female or Gay, or that my opinion is of less value for that reason.

This! Also Labels tend to imply quality that isn't necessarily there. Most people are idiots, therefore, it would be logical to assume that most feminists or most gay-rights advocates or most - insert cause here - are idiots. Hence the fact that any movement which marches under one of those banners will be doomed to failure on the strength that it's run, almost exclusively, by idiots.

I say "the feminist movement is mostly a bunch of pissed off idiots", however and it's likely to be taken the wrong way.
I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and itís not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesnít matter." -- Max Tegmark

Bu🤠ns

  • █ ▀█ ▀ █ ▀█▄ ▀█
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 4818
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #521 on: August 15, 2012, 07:55:07 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

Hm, I've been on the run so I haven't read the whole thread.
I have this feeling about this word Cis, though. A though actually. And it's a bit rambly but essentially boils down to:

Yeah no.

Labels are inherently devisive.  I don't refer to Robert Jackson at work as "my Black coworker."  I don't refer to Anthony as "My Gay friend."  I don't refer to my doctor as "my male doctor/my female doctor".  The only time labels are important is when the label itself is relevant to the conversation, and FUCK ANYONE who says I don't get an opinion on elgatarianism unless I'm female or Gay, or that my opinion is of less value for that reason.



How do you view using race or sex as a way to differentiate among others in a group?

As in:

Person 1: Oh that's my friend best friend over there
Person 2: Which one?
Person 1: The black one
or
Person 1: The woman

I ask because to discern based on those characteristics is rather convenient but also divisive and to NOT do so is, also, in a sense, using the characteristic as a basis to NOT do so. Does that make sense?

Also, for whatever reason,  for Person 1 to say "The gay one" seems more wrong that the previous two...maybe.

Okay I think my brain just exploded....

Salty

  • Anarcho-Kardashian, Prophet
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 6032
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #522 on: August 15, 2012, 07:57:30 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

Hm, I've been on the run so I haven't read the whole thread.
I have this feeling about this word Cis, though. A though actually. And it's a bit rambly but essentially boils down to:

Yeah no.

Labels are inherently devisive.  I don't refer to Robert Jackson at work as "my Black coworker."  I don't refer to Anthony as "My Gay friend."  I don't refer to my doctor as "my male doctor/my female doctor".  The only time labels are important is when the label itself is relevant to the conversation, and FUCK ANYONE who says I don't get an opinion on elgatarianism unless I'm female or Gay, or that my opinion is of less value for that reason.

This! Also Labels tend to imply quality that isn't necessarily there. Most people are idiots, therefore, it would be logical to assume that most feminists or most gay-rights advocates or most - insert cause here - are idiots. Hence the fact that any movement which marches under one of those banners will be doomed to failure on the strength that it's run, almost exclusively, by idiots.

I say "the feminist movement is mostly a bunch of pissed off idiots", however and it's likely to be taken the wrong way.

lol. I agree with this.

As a boy I quickly learned I hated queer people too. Because they're people.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

P3nT4gR4m

  • Official SSOOKN Pariah
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 15293
  • I'm an artist now - isn't that depressing?
    • View Profile
    • fuck you
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #523 on: August 15, 2012, 07:59:54 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

Hm, I've been on the run so I haven't read the whole thread.
I have this feeling about this word Cis, though. A though actually. And it's a bit rambly but essentially boils down to:

Yeah no.

Labels are inherently devisive.  I don't refer to Robert Jackson at work as "my Black coworker."  I don't refer to Anthony as "My Gay friend."  I don't refer to my doctor as "my male doctor/my female doctor".  The only time labels are important is when the label itself is relevant to the conversation, and FUCK ANYONE who says I don't get an opinion on elgatarianism unless I'm female or Gay, or that my opinion is of less value for that reason.



How do you view using race or sex as a way to differentiate among others in a group?

As in:

Person 1: Oh that's my friend best friend over there
Person 2: Which one?
Person 1: The black one
or
Person 1: The woman

I ask because to discern based on those characteristics is rather convenient but also divisive and to NOT do so is, also, in a sense, using the characteristic as a basis to NOT do so. Does that make sense?

Also, for whatever reason,  for Person 1 to say "The gay one" seems more wrong that the previous two...maybe.

Okay I think my brain just exploded....

Context is how a biped would do it. Describing your friend as the one with the slightly wider pinstipe in his blue tie when he's as black as the ace of spades is downright fucking retarded. It's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from exactly the kind of dumb fuck I strive to avoid.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 08:01:39 pm by P3nT4gR4m »
I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and itís not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesnít matter." -- Max Tegmark

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

  • Probably
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 11433
    • View Profile
Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #524 on: August 15, 2012, 08:06:55 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.

Hm, I've been on the run so I haven't read the whole thread.
I have this feeling about this word Cis, though. A though actually. And it's a bit rambly but essentially boils down to:

Yeah no.

Labels are inherently devisive.  I don't refer to Robert Jackson at work as "my Black coworker."  I don't refer to Anthony as "My Gay friend."  I don't refer to my doctor as "my male doctor/my female doctor".  The only time labels are important is when the label itself is relevant to the conversation, and FUCK ANYONE who says I don't get an opinion on elgatarianism unless I'm female or Gay, or that my opinion is of less value for that reason.



How do you view using race or sex as a way to differentiate among others in a group?

As in:

Person 1: Oh that's my friend best friend over there
Person 2: Which one?
Person 1: The black one
or
Person 1: The woman

I ask because to discern based on those characteristics is rather convenient but also divisive and to NOT do so is, also, in a sense, using the characteristic as a basis to NOT do so. Does that make sense?

Also, for whatever reason,  for Person 1 to say "The gay one" seems more wrong that the previous two...maybe.

Okay I think my brain just exploded....

What P3nt said. The problem lies in the psycholgoy and semantics. To quote from Hagbard Celine:

Quote
It is easy to see that label "Jew" was a Damnation in Nazi
Germany, but actually the label "Jew" is a Damnation anywhere, even where
anti-Semitism does not exist. "He is a Jew," "He is a doctor," and "He is a
poet" mean, to the card indexing centre of the cortex, that my experience
with him will be like my experience with other Jews, other doctors, and
other poets. Thus, individuality is ignored when identity is asserted. At a
party or any place where strangers meet, watch this mechanism in action.
Behind the friendly overtures there is wariness as each person fishes for
the label that will identify and Damn the other. Finally, it is revealed:
"Oh, he's an advertising copywriter," "Oh, he's an engine-lathe operator."
Both parties relax, for now they know how to behave, what roles to play in
the game. Ninety-nine percent of each has been Damned; the other is
reacting to the 1 percent that has been labeled by the card-index machine.

Quote
We must remember that thought is abstraction. In Einstein's metaphor, the
relationship between a physical fact and our mental reception of that fact
is not like the relationship between beef and beef-broth, a simpler
extraction and condensation; rather, as Einstein goes on, it is like the
relationship between our overcoat and the ticket given us when we check our
overcoat. In other words, human perception involves coding even more than
crude sensing. The mesh of language, or of mathematics, or of a school of
art, or of any system of human abstracting, gives to our mental constructs
the structure, not of the original fact, but of the symbol system into
which it is coded, just as a map-maker colors a nation purple not because
it is purple but because his code demands it. But every code excludes
certain things, blurs other things, and overemphasizes still other things.

http://surge.ods.org/idle_other/whistle.htm
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson