Author Topic: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!  (Read 81605 times)

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #600 on: August 15, 2012, 10:55:26 pm »
I'd have to see.  It looks pretty knotted up.

In fact, it looks like everything that's been explained to me in the last 2 days has been bullshit.

That's more than a little extreme, and comes across as a cop-out.

I rephrased in a later post.  On this page.

ETA:  reply 592, last page.

What I learned is still correct.  That's not the issue.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #601 on: August 15, 2012, 10:57:27 pm »
I'm quite fond of Gloria Stienem's quote "The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off!"

Being oppressed is traumatic and obviously terrible. But it also can have the effect of turning people sour and seeking revenge. This is fact, and nobody is above it. See: ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY. Being oppressed does not lend itself to giving a balanced view of the situation even if that oppression ends. Whole nations of humans have formed for the specific purpose of seeking revenge for oppression - and they do it, and they're no better than their oppressors were, but they don't see it, because their ability to be fair has been violated and destroyed by the original oppression.

I'm not saying feminism is necessarily going to go down this path, but it's possible (and you can't really say it's impossible without being self-righteous and just plain wrong). So it seems to me that feminism needs detached, outside opinions and observations in order to keep that possibility in check.

Saying things like "men don't/can't understand" or "a man's view is inherently inferior or inadequate" or that it must "take a back seat" to a woman's opinions is evidence of that counter-oppressive possibility.

Um, no, dude. We are saying that often (not all the time and not by all men) our experiences are minimised and brushed off as Not That Big A Deal, (see Street Harrassment, Mr Handsy deemed "harmless", being told that the boy in class when your six is hitting you because "he likes you".) because of this factor, and society treating angry women as something not to be taken seriously or "PERIODS LOL!" that the net effect of this is that although I DEARLY WOULD LOVE MEN TO BE MORE FEMINIST/ PRO-FEMINIST and decent dudes, there is a history of being marginalised, and that more of the same isn't what we want.  Hence the listening/taking a back seat/letting women frame the goals.  It's like planning moving house and telling someone where all the stuff needs to go, they may be doing all the heavy lifting, but if they ignore me and put the sofa in the kitchen I'm screwed if they leave and don't put it right.  Ok that analogy sucked a little.  All I would like from guys involved with feminism is that they recognise the marginalisation, and try not to let there be more of the same in their actions and those around them.

As for guys informing on feminist issues, it was Roger's comments and experience of porn stars and how the life can seriously fuck them up that started me questioning if porn was something I wanted to consume and therefore be complicit in.  I decided no "DO NOT WANT!" and have since been fapping to pictures of James Iha in a dress. :fap: I'm not for censorship, and if I was 100% without a doubt sure that "no porn stars were hurt in this production" like the RSPCA does with animals in films I could watch enthusiastic people fucking who have a connection based on mutual respect and fap my brains out, rather than worrying if the girl getting double-penetrated in the ass is coked up to cope or in danger of getting HIV. :vom:  I've been educated on these kinds of things by men, having a penis is not a bar to being ethical and decent.

Dudes in feminism (I'm hoping there will be some blokes in dresses! With Beards, because that is HAWT!) can speak to other dudes about Shit That Is Not OK when it comes to rape culture and wage gap and like Roger's examples of Shit He Will Not Tolerate, because for a long time its been a bit like David Cameron telling Nadine Dorries to "Calm down, dear!" when she got wound up in Parliament. (the fact that she's a anti-choicer advocating abstinence only sex ed for girls is infuriating as his attitude, but hey..) The wage gap would drop pretty quickly if household chores and childcare were more equitable, and the custody of kids in a divorce would change and be more in favour of joint custody, and boys who like wearing dresses and playing with dolls will get the same treatment as girls who are tomboys.

Maybe the anger and frustration at being marginalised and not taken seriously has coloured my view and the view of feminists, hence the need to be listened to and taken seriously.

I wholeheartedly want men to engage with feminism, to help us speak truth to power, because in some cases that is the only way to access the boys club mentality of some men and people in power, and the only way to affect social change.


Maybe it's not a matter of "speaking truth to power"?

If you're going to bring power into this (which I suppose makes perfect sense) then I'm pretty much as marginalised as you are. I'm a guy, I have all the "privileges" as you put it. I'm living the life of Riley, right? I'm one of the elite. I'm a hard as fuck, asskicking testosterone machine, marching on the skeletons of women. Only I'm not. I grew up in a fucking shithole where the girls were harder than most men I associate with nowadays. Disputes were solved almost exclusively with violence and you either learned to fight or you didn't make it out of there alive.

By the time I went to secondary school my card was already marked. I was one of those Westquarter kids. We were lumped together in the same form class, along with the kids from the other local blackspots. When kids from the other classes were being given careers advice meetings and told to go to university and shit, we were being told that half of us would end up in prison. As far as I'm aware, more than half of us did.

So yeah, I'm part of the elite. I have no idea what it feels like to be discriminated against. I have nothing in common with some poor oppressed woman who's only on a paltry ten times my salary, as opposed to her husband who's nearer twenty times.
That's class, from the sounds of it. IMO, the three biggest, most important things that determine where you end up are, in order: class, race, and sex. The rich white gal is better off than you by a mile, but you're still better off than a female who otherwise fits your social demographics (why do you think the gals you knew were tougher than the boys? They had to be; it was an issue of survival).



When I say "cis man tears", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some men have

When I say "feminazi", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some women have

When I say "cunt", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some women have

When I say "fag", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some gay people have


I never, ever expected this.

I appreciate what you're pointing out, but I also see what Garbo is trying to convey, which is that oftentimes when someone who is in a socially privileged position is are asked to review and perhaps revise their behavior in order to foster higher levels of equality, they often fall back on the "tragedy of the oppressor", much like the mega-wealthy complain of being robbed by a 0.5% tax hike to help provide health care to the poor.

Oh, I know.  It's just that I had just built this mountain of respect for her, while you and she were explaining to me why calling an inanimate object a "cunt" was still wrong.  I listened, because I'm trying to become a better person (it's been my goal for 15 years or more), but then it turns out that it's okay to use the exact same thing on PEOPLE, if it's aimed in one particular direction.

There were plenty of ways to say what she meant to say.  She chose that one.

My sense of letdown is mine and mine alone, of course.  She isn't required to be consistent for my sake.
Roger, this is part of where the thread got all knotty. I never said it was okay to aim it in the other direction based on someone's sex or gender whatsoever (because it isn't and I thought I had made that clear when I indicated I was okay with taking "dick" as an insult out of my vocabulary). "Cis man tears" was EXPLICITLY about men who think a certain way - thoughts and ideas are being criticized here, not sex or gender. If you don't think that way, then it's not something that applies to you. Assuming that it does is like assuming that me mocking Republican men who oppose birthcontrol is mocking you because you happen to be a white guy and most Republicans who oppose birthcontrol are white men.
Okay? Am I making sense?
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #602 on: August 15, 2012, 10:58:25 pm »
Roger, this is part of where the thread got all knotty. I never said it was okay to aim it in the other direction based on someone's sex or gender whatsoever (because it isn't and I thought I had made that clear when I indicated I was okay with taking "dick" as an insult out of my vocabulary). "Cis man tears" was EXPLICITLY about men who think a certain way - thoughts and ideas are being criticized here, not sex or gender. If you don't think that way, then it's not something that applies to you. Assuming that it does is like assuming that me mocking Republican men who oppose birthcontrol is mocking you because you happen to be a white guy and most Republicans who oppose birthcontrol are white men.
Okay? Am I making sense?

Not sure.  This requires thought.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #603 on: August 15, 2012, 11:00:39 pm »
BRB.  Offline for a couple of hours, to think about this shit.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #604 on: August 15, 2012, 11:00:39 pm »
Roger, this is part of where the thread got all knotty. I never said it was okay to aim it in the other direction based on someone's sex or gender whatsoever (because it isn't and I thought I had made that clear when I indicated I was okay with taking "dick" as an insult out of my vocabulary). "Cis man tears" was EXPLICITLY about men who think a certain way - thoughts and ideas are being criticized here, not sex or gender. If you don't think that way, then it's not something that applies to you. Assuming that it does is like assuming that me mocking Republican men who oppose birthcontrol is mocking you because you happen to be a white guy and most Republicans who oppose birthcontrol are white men.
Okay? Am I making sense?

Not sure.  This requires thought.


Roger, this is part of where the thread got all knotty. I never said it was okay to aim it in the other direction based on someone's sex or gender whatsoever (because it isn't and I thought I had made that clear when I indicated I was okay with taking "dick" as an insult out of my vocabulary). "Cis man tears" was EXPLICITLY about men who think a certain way - thoughts and ideas are being criticized here, not sex or gender. If you don't think that way, then it's not something that applies to you. Assuming that it does is like assuming that me mocking Republican men who oppose birthcontrol is mocking you because you happen to be a white guy and most Republicans who oppose birthcontrol are white men.
Okay? Am I making sense?

Not sure.  This requires thought.
That's all I can ask.


So in response to the OP - Patriarchy is not the enemy. Patriarchy is one of the tools of oppression that the actual enemy uses to keep us down, to keep us fighting amongst ourselves. Contrary to popular belief patriarchy does not empower all men to the exclusion of all women. Some women are a fucking sight better off than some men.
Yes, this.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #605 on: August 15, 2012, 11:01:44 pm »
What I like most about this thread is how I often feel like I'm barely keeping my fingertips above the waterline. And I need to read a lot more.

It's also fun to watch the horrible, congealed, toxic slug-like creature that is PD (that's how I always picture it) react to these ideas.

What I like most about this thread is that I presented an idea, and was told that what I REALLY meant was something else.  And then everyone came along to agree vehemently with what an ass I am for the belief I didn't have.  So I clarified my position, and it was totally ignored.

I'm fuming fucking mad, and I have been since this morning.
Which idea?
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #606 on: August 15, 2012, 11:03:00 pm »
Ook ook. If you're determined to take offence, fuck you Roger. You miserable fuck. I'm done giving you the benefit of the doubt and can only read your reactions here as attempts at shutting the conversation down with strawmen.

What the gibbering fuck are you talking about?

I'm talking about repeated attempts to address your "they are putting words in my mouth and that post didn't have anything to do with me" with "prove it" and "then it probably wasn't aimed at you" being responded to with "YOU JUST KEEP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH".

Get fucked. "This minority isn't giving me enough of a say" makes you look like a parody of every privileged motherfucker ever. "BAWWW They aren't trusting me even though I am on their side" you poor son of a bitch, that must be really upsetting. You know who else that distrust is uncomfortable for? The women whose experience has led them to develop it for self defence.

Here, for the first time, there is room for complaining about how I'm portraying you.

Paesor, you simply don't have the chops to tell me that I don't understand the consequences of non-eglatarian behavior.

That's really all there is to it.
For someone so unjustly misrepresented in this thread, you sure do a good job of "this is what you really think".

I've already explained my position on privilege, Paesior, a couple of pages back.  The fact that you blew past it is not my problem.  The fact that there can be very different reasons why privilege is bad - even potentially fatal for people who didn't do shit to deserve it - doesn't seem to concern you in the slightest. 

So spare me your outrage, and don't ever presume to preach to me about privilege or inequality again.  I mean, you CAN, but I won't be listening, for reasons that I'm not going to type out again.

ETA:  Reply 544, if you're interested.  You're not, of course.  That much at least is obvious.
No, I read that. After pages of intentionally misreading EVERYTHING it's a stretch to try and paint me as uninterested in actually having this conversation, considering the numerous "hey, there might be a misunderstanding here, shall we backtrack and address it" comments that you raged past.

I don't disagre with any of that post. Bad information with regards to equality fucks everybody up. I'm not going to disrespect your experience but comparing it to this one to illustrate my point about that distrust, though.

Most of the point of my post was "stop claiming that people are misrepresenting you unless you're willing to address that interpretation like a biped."


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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #607 on: August 15, 2012, 11:05:52 pm »
Okay so I think we're getting into hair-splitting semantics here but can someone explain to me how in the name of fuck I can't "understand" what it's like to be an oppressed woman, without actually being an oppressed woman?

Look at it this way - I've never killed anyone before but I understand that murder is wrong

I've never been female, granted but I've had shit piled on me from an early age, day in day out. That's not similar enough to the plight of the oppressed woman, though? No amount of intellect will make up the deficit? So where do you draw the line? I'll stick my neck on the line and estimate that no two women on the face of the planet have had the exact same, identical life experience with their patriarchal oppressors so does that mean even women can't possibly understand it? Or maybe that only one woman can truly understand?

No, that's patently ridiculous but where are you drawing the line? The shape of your genitals? Get a fucking grip. I can't understand a pretty simple concept cos I have a cock? I'm not meant to take that as condescension? LOL! I'm glad I'm not one of those spineless fucks who does everything they're meant to do then.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #608 on: August 15, 2012, 11:08:11 pm »
I am a "CIS male".  This is utterly irrelevant as to whether or not I am an elgatarian.  And I don't see any "feminist space".  I see people who want to be recognized as people and/or who recognize other people as people.  There is no "space" here to enter.  There is no territory upon which to infringe.  You are, or you aren't.  Nothing else matters.

That's fine. But Roger, there are feminist spaces. Whether there should be or not is a different argument, but they exist. There are feminist collectives and feminist blogs and feminist communities and feminist events, and they are spearheaded as such. They're a thing. And when men come along and want to turn the whole things into a discussion about "what about meeeeee", that's when we get frustrated.

One thing that is especially frustrating about it is that there is no reason men can't have those spaces, but it's up to them to make them. It's a bit silly for men to ask women to make them a space for feminist men. The world is wide open for spaces like that, if people want them.

My problem is that I still don't recognize these spaces.

There's humanity, in it's entirety.  Other than that, there is a cold, empty universe that wants us all dead.  There's nothing else, discounting religion, which isn't the topic here.

Well, yes, and no. There is humanity, and there are subgroups within humanity that all have an interplay with one another, and there are virtual (and literal) "spaces" that are all-female or all-male. There are some groups, for example the molestation and rape recovery groups I attended as a young woman, which are female-only, because their members do not yet feel safe expressing themselves freely or being vulnerable in the presence of men, and similar groups for men who don't yet feel safe expressing themselves or being vulnerable in the presence of women. In my work with foster kids, often we have requests for only a female team or only a male team, because some of these kids have been abused, some very badly, and are scared of one sex.

So, sometimes certain types of groups are needed in order to create a "safe space" for people who are still too scared to open up and discuss ideas that make them feel vulnerable, whether they're men or women. Men are particularly conditioned to fear vulnerability, and most intensely to fear vulnerability in front of women. I see "safe space" groups like that as intermediate steps that are sometimes necessary on the road to fully interacting as equal human beings.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #609 on: August 15, 2012, 11:11:11 pm »
I'd have to see.  It looks pretty knotted up.

In fact, it looks like everything that's been explained to me in the last 2 days has been bullshit.

That's more than a little extreme, and comes across as a cop-out.

I rephrased in a later post.  On this page.

ETA:  reply 592, last page.

What I learned is still correct.  That's not the issue.

OK, I'm catching up now.

I think one thing to remember is that everybody makes mistakes. One of the worst mundane tragedies that happens to almost everyone is the fundamental attribution error; when someone words something badly or does something that is generally out of character for them, and the other person revises their entire concept of them negatively based on that one mistake or interaction.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #610 on: August 15, 2012, 11:13:22 pm »
I retract my "fuck you, Roger" sentiment. It read to me like you could be intentionally misunderstanding because you seemed unwilling to address where that misunderstanding came from, but I don't actually think you're aiming to derail the thread with that.

I got pissed off because when I try and offer clarification where we stop effectively communicating and those offers get lost in a sea of responses to the what I feel is a misinterpreted point, it feels like that interpretation of the point can only be being operated on to continue the outrage. My feeling is that backtracking and carefully examining the points of disagreement is more useful than repeating the angry response to bad data.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #611 on: August 15, 2012, 11:15:17 pm »
Okay so I think we're getting into hair-splitting semantics here but can someone explain to me how in the name of fuck I can't "understand" what it's like to be an oppressed woman, without actually being an oppressed woman?

Look at it this way - I've never killed anyone before but I understand that murder is wrong

I've never been female, granted but I've had shit piled on me from an early age, day in day out. That's not similar enough to the plight of the oppressed woman, though? No amount of intellect will make up the deficit? So where do you draw the line? I'll stick my neck on the line and estimate that no two women on the face of the planet have had the exact same, identical life experience with their patriarchal oppressors so does that mean even women can't possibly understand it? Or maybe that only one woman can truly understand?

No, that's patently ridiculous but where are you drawing the line? The shape of your genitals? Get a fucking grip. I can't understand a pretty simple concept cos I have a cock? I'm not meant to take that as condescension? LOL! I'm glad I'm not one of those spineless fucks who does everything they're meant to do then.


I think you hit on animportant point here, and this is where that argument breaks down.  It is true that I will never have a true 100% precise understanding of the exact nature of being attacked, or tortured, or killed, because none of those have happened to me.  They haven't happened to a lot of people, yet, that doesn't remotely impact those people from being able to understand and empathize at a productive level that allows them to be powerful agents for change to reduce those things.


As humans, whether or not horror is visited upon us, we do tend to have innate understandings of death and harm.  We are fight or flight creatures. 


I don't need to be in the shoes of a person who was raped to understand that it would really, really suck to be in those shoes and that it is important to take up the cause of preventing other people having to wear those shoes.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #612 on: August 15, 2012, 11:16:18 pm »
I'd have to see.  It looks pretty knotted up.

In fact, it looks like everything that's been explained to me in the last 2 days has been bullshit.

That's more than a little extreme, and comes across as a cop-out.

I rephrased in a later post.  On this page.

ETA:  reply 592, last page.

What I learned is still correct.  That's not the issue.

OK, I'm catching up now.

I think one thing to remember is that everybody makes mistakes. One of the worst mundane tragedies that happens to almost everyone is the fundamental attribution error; when someone words something badly or does something that is generally out of character for them, and the other person revises their entire concept of them negatively based on that one mistake or interaction.

Speaking as a self confessed master of putting things the wrong way, I'd like to second this motion. Sincerely! Sometimes smart people say dumb shit and sometimes dumb people say smart shit. Most of the time I'm completely unaware of which one I am.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #613 on: August 15, 2012, 11:17:30 pm »
Garbo; I am pretty sure I understand what you meant by "cis man tears". I think you were trying to express the tragedy of the oppressor, when the oppressor expresses that it will cause them pain to alter their behavior so that it ceases to oppress others. However, it's as counterproductive a term as "white man's burden". Yes, it describes something really specific, but it also falls into the trap of negatively generalizing and dismissing a group of people. It would probably be best to just say it was a poor choice of phrasing, and abandon it forever as a derogatory term.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #614 on: August 15, 2012, 11:18:19 pm »
I'd have to see.  It looks pretty knotted up.

In fact, it looks like everything that's been explained to me in the last 2 days has been bullshit.

That's more than a little extreme, and comes across as a cop-out.

I rephrased in a later post.  On this page.

ETA:  reply 592, last page.

What I learned is still correct.  That's not the issue.

OK, I'm catching up now.

I think one thing to remember is that everybody makes mistakes. One of the worst mundane tragedies that happens to almost everyone is the fundamental attribution error; when someone words something badly or does something that is generally out of character for them, and the other person revises their entire concept of them negatively based on that one mistake or interaction.

Speaking as a self confessed master of putting things the wrong way, I'd like to second this motion. Sincerely! Sometimes smart people say dumb shit and sometimes dumb people say smart shit. Most of the time I'm completely unaware of which one I am.

Amen! We're all guilty of it.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.