Author Topic: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!  (Read 97907 times)

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #585 on: August 15, 2012, 10:28:54 pm »
Ook ook. If you're determined to take offence, fuck you Roger. You miserable fuck. I'm done giving you the benefit of the doubt and can only read your reactions here as attempts at shutting the conversation down with strawmen.

What the gibbering fuck are you talking about?

I'm talking about repeated attempts to address your "they are putting words in my mouth and that post didn't have anything to do with me" with "prove it" and "then it probably wasn't aimed at you" being responded to with "YOU JUST KEEP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH".

Get fucked. "This minority isn't giving me enough of a say" makes you look like a parody of every privileged motherfucker ever. "BAWWW They aren't trusting me even though I am on their side" you poor son of a bitch, that must be really upsetting. You know who else that distrust is uncomfortable for? The women whose experience has led them to develop it for self defence.

Here, for the first time, there is room for complaining about how I'm portraying you.

Paesor, you simply don't have the chops to tell me that I don't understand the consequences of non-eglatarian behavior.

That's really all there is to it.
For someone so unjustly misrepresented in this thread, you sure do a good job of "this is what you really think".

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #586 on: August 15, 2012, 10:31:08 pm »
Yes but can men join as equals, intellectually and otherwise?

Join what?

the feminist cause, the fight for equality. saying "mens ideas must take a back seat" is like telling straight people they have no business fighting for gay rights, or white people they have no business fighting for racial equality, unless they completely bow out of the conversation and do nothing but show up at rallies and echo what they're told to say.

I think that "men's ideas must take a back seat" is wrong. However, I think that when people say "men need to listen to women's feelings and experiences without trying to invalidate them just because they don't match their own feelings and experiences", some people often perceive it as saying that men's ideas must take a back seat.

It's not that men's experiences don't count or aren't valid. It's that it's a problem when men try to use their experiences to tell women what women feel and experience, or what men think women ought to feel and experience.

THIS.

Also, all this fingerpointing about how priviliged men are is a bullshit tactic. Not being slut-shamed or whatever doesn't make anybody king of the world or make their input irrelevant.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #587 on: August 15, 2012, 10:32:37 pm »
Ook ook. If you're determined to take offence, fuck you Roger. You miserable fuck. I'm done giving you the benefit of the doubt and can only read your reactions here as attempts at shutting the conversation down with strawmen.

What the gibbering fuck are you talking about?

"OOK OOK" - wasn't that Khara's line?  :lulz:

No, that was my line.   :lulz:

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #588 on: August 15, 2012, 10:33:31 pm »
Ook ook. If you're determined to take offence, fuck you Roger. You miserable fuck. I'm done giving you the benefit of the doubt and can only read your reactions here as attempts at shutting the conversation down with strawmen.

What the gibbering fuck are you talking about?

I'm talking about repeated attempts to address your "they are putting words in my mouth and that post didn't have anything to do with me" with "prove it" and "then it probably wasn't aimed at you" being responded to with "YOU JUST KEEP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH".

Get fucked. "This minority isn't giving me enough of a say" makes you look like a parody of every privileged motherfucker ever. "BAWWW They aren't trusting me even though I am on their side" you poor son of a bitch, that must be really upsetting. You know who else that distrust is uncomfortable for? The women whose experience has led them to develop it for self defence.

Here, for the first time, there is room for complaining about how I'm portraying you.

Paesor, you simply don't have the chops to tell me that I don't understand the consequences of non-eglatarian behavior.

That's really all there is to it.
For someone so unjustly misrepresented in this thread, you sure do a good job of "this is what you really think".

I've already explained my position on privilege, Paesior, a couple of pages back.  The fact that you blew past it is not my problem.  The fact that there can be very different reasons why privilege is bad - even potentially fatal for people who didn't do shit to deserve it - doesn't seem to concern you in the slightest. 

So spare me your outrage, and don't ever presume to preach to me about privilege or inequality again.  I mean, you CAN, but I won't be listening, for reasons that I'm not going to type out again.

ETA:  Reply 544, if you're interested.  You're not, of course.  That much at least is obvious.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 10:36:01 pm by Dirty Old Uncle Roger »
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #589 on: August 15, 2012, 10:34:20 pm »
Yes. There's feminism, and OTOH, there's the female counterpart to the Little Rascals "He Man Woman Haters Club".

We're comparing apples & oranges, here.  The two have nothing in common.  If you hate, distrust, or stick labels all over one gender or group, then you are neither an eglatarian nor a feminist.  You're the opposition.

And it doesn't matter if you're in the "feminists are a bunch of ball-busting man-haters" crowd, or the "men are incapable of understanding" crowd.  The former is obvious, the latter is just as insidious because it places a false condition on the subject.  It is NOT required for me to "experience what being a woman is like", just like it is not required for me to experience what Gays put up with, for me to include them in my view of who counts as "people".

I also have no idea what kids in Mali go through, after all, and I consider them to be humans.
I think what you, and the others who are on the same page re: understanding, are missing is that understanding (aka empathy) and Understanding (visceral experiences) are different. They're similar, but as I've said, but not quite the same. I want your empathy and for you to say that you get why, let's say, we're wary of men we don't know. I don't want you to say you Understand because you don't live with the fear of being raped or murdered every day because of your sex or perceived gender. It's a fine, but very valid difference in my opinion.
(I also really want to emphasize that not being able to Understand doesn't make your empathy invalid or make you evil or whatever. It's just a difference I think is important to acknowledge).


Also, all this fingerpointing about how priviliged men are is a bullshit tactic. Not being slut-shamed or whatever doesn't make anybody king of the world or make their input irrelevant.
It's not finger pointing (because it's not something to be ashamed of nor is it something they created) and they are privileged. End of story. Although you'll get no argument from me that their input is still valid.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #590 on: August 15, 2012, 10:37:12 pm »
I think what you, and the others who are on the same page re: understanding, are missing is that understanding (aka empathy) and Understanding (visceral experiences) are different.

I think I have the visceral parts down pat, thanks.  Maybe not in the same way you've learned them, but believe you me, they were drilled right into my fucking head.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #591 on: August 15, 2012, 10:39:10 pm »
When I say "cis man tears", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some men have

When I say "feminazi", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some women have

When I say "cunt", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some women have

When I say "fag", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some gay people have


I never, ever expected this.

I appreciate what you're pointing out, but I also see what Garbo is trying to convey, which is that oftentimes when someone who is in a socially privileged position is are asked to review and perhaps revise their behavior in order to foster higher levels of equality, they often fall back on the "tragedy of the oppressor", much like the mega-wealthy complain of being robbed by a 0.5% tax hike to help provide health care to the poor.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #592 on: August 15, 2012, 10:42:41 pm »
When I say "cis man tears", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some men have

When I say "feminazi", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some women have

When I say "cunt", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some women have

When I say "fag", I'm specifically referring to a certain mind set some gay people have


I never, ever expected this.

I appreciate what you're pointing out, but I also see what Garbo is trying to convey, which is that oftentimes when someone who is in a socially privileged position is are asked to review and perhaps revise their behavior in order to foster higher levels of equality, they often fall back on the "tragedy of the oppressor", much like the mega-wealthy complain of being robbed by a 0.5% tax hike to help provide health care to the poor.

Oh, I know.  It's just that I had just built this mountain of respect for her, while you and she were explaining to me why calling an inanimate object a "cunt" was still wrong.  I listened, because I'm trying to become a better person (it's been my goal for 15 years or more), but then it turns out that it's okay to use the exact same thing on PEOPLE, if it's aimed in one particular direction.

There were plenty of ways to say what she meant to say.  She chose that one.

My sense of letdown is mine and mine alone, of course.  She isn't required to be consistent for my sake.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #593 on: August 15, 2012, 10:44:52 pm »
Yes but can men join as equals, intellectually and otherwise?

Join what?

the feminist cause, the fight for equality. saying "mens ideas must take a back seat" is like telling straight people they have no business fighting for gay rights, or white people they have no business fighting for racial equality, unless they completely bow out of the conversation and do nothing but show up at rallies and echo what they're told to say.

I think that "men's ideas must take a back seat" is wrong. However, I think that when people say "men need to listen to women's feelings and experiences without trying to invalidate them just because they don't match their own feelings and experiences", some people often perceive it as saying that men's ideas must take a back seat.

It's not that men's experiences don't count or aren't valid. It's that it's a problem when men try to use their experiences to tell women what women feel and experience, or what men think women ought to feel and experience.

What Nigel has said is actually what I was trying to say by "men's ideas need to take a back seat" but I cannot articulate at ass o'clock in the morning. So for clarity, this is far closer to what I was trying to convey than how it came across. Apologies.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #594 on: August 15, 2012, 10:46:19 pm »
I am a "CIS male".  This is utterly irrelevant as to whether or not I am an elgatarian.  And I don't see any "feminist space".  I see people who want to be recognized as people and/or who recognize other people as people.  There is no "space" here to enter.  There is no territory upon which to infringe.  You are, or you aren't.  Nothing else matters.

That's fine. But Roger, there are feminist spaces. Whether there should be or not is a different argument, but they exist. There are feminist collectives and feminist blogs and feminist communities and feminist events, and they are spearheaded as such. They're a thing. And when men come along and want to turn the whole things into a discussion about "what about meeeeee", that's when we get frustrated.

One thing that is especially frustrating about it is that there is no reason men can't have those spaces, but it's up to them to make them. It's a bit silly for men to ask women to make them a space for feminist men. The world is wide open for spaces like that, if people want them.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #595 on: August 15, 2012, 10:47:48 pm »
Yes but can men join as equals, intellectually and otherwise?

Join what?

the feminist cause, the fight for equality. saying "mens ideas must take a back seat" is like telling straight people they have no business fighting for gay rights, or white people they have no business fighting for racial equality, unless they completely bow out of the conversation and do nothing but show up at rallies and echo what they're told to say.

I think that "men's ideas must take a back seat" is wrong. However, I think that when people say "men need to listen to women's feelings and experiences without trying to invalidate them just because they don't match their own feelings and experiences", some people often perceive it as saying that men's ideas must take a back seat.

It's not that men's experiences don't count or aren't valid. It's that it's a problem when men try to use their experiences to tell women what women feel and experience, or what men think women ought to feel and experience.

What Nigel has said is actually what I was trying to say by "men's ideas need to take a back seat" but I cannot articulate at ass o'clock in the morning. So for clarity, this is far closer to what I was trying to convey than how it came across. Apologies.

No problem.  If that's what you were trying to say, then I have no argument.  My apologies in return.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #596 on: August 15, 2012, 10:49:16 pm »
I am a "CIS male".  This is utterly irrelevant as to whether or not I am an elgatarian.  And I don't see any "feminist space".  I see people who want to be recognized as people and/or who recognize other people as people.  There is no "space" here to enter.  There is no territory upon which to infringe.  You are, or you aren't.  Nothing else matters.

That's fine. But Roger, there are feminist spaces. Whether there should be or not is a different argument, but they exist. There are feminist collectives and feminist blogs and feminist communities and feminist events, and they are spearheaded as such. They're a thing. And when men come along and want to turn the whole things into a discussion about "what about meeeeee", that's when we get frustrated.

One thing that is especially frustrating about it is that there is no reason men can't have those spaces, but it's up to them to make them. It's a bit silly for men to ask women to make them a space for feminist men. The world is wide open for spaces like that, if people want them.

My problem is that I still don't recognize these spaces.

There's humanity, in it's entirety.  Other than that, there is a cold, empty universe that wants us all dead.  There's nothing else, discounting religion, which isn't the topic here.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #597 on: August 15, 2012, 10:53:10 pm »
The following is a rationalization that my brain came up with. I know it's not right in spite of there being a little truth to it, but I thought I'd offer it up as an example of a way that patriarchal ideas can manifest. I'm also depositing it here for the sake of dissection.

Women tend to be physically smaller and have less upper body strength than men, so why is it such a no-no to link femininity to weakness? On one hand I hear women saying that men don't understand how inequality in strength and size fuels feelings of vulnerability around men, yet women seem to not want womanhood or femininity otherwise linked with weakness.

Unfortunately, it's entirely appropriate for women to be concerned about being physically overpowered as it's basic fact that most men are stronger than most women. For the average man, such a concern is less warranted as he's likely to have a more even match when push comes to shove. So when guys disparage one another using words conceptually linked to women it seems less about putting women down and more an inference that what is an appropriate concern for a woman is often not an appropriate concern for man.

OK, I'm going to do one of those comparisons that people hate so much. Before I do, I want to make clear that I am doing this purely because I find it incredibly effective in highlighting the issue in terms that most of us are already familiar with, and not because I in any way think you endorse these views.

Quote
Blacks tend to be lower income and have less material wealth than whites, so why is it such a no-no to link blackness to poverty? On one hand I hear blacks saying that whites don't understand how inequality in income and assets fuels feelings of oppression and disparity around whites, yet blacks seem to not want African origins or dark skin otherwise linked with poverty.

Unfortunately, it's entirely appropriate for blacks to be concerned about being economically discriminated against as it's basic fact that most whites are paid more than most blacks. For the average white person, such a concern is less warranted as they're likely to have a more even match when applying for work. So when whites disparage one another using words conceptually linked to blacks it seems less about putting blacks down and more an inference that what is an appropriate concern for a black person is often not an appropriate concern for a white person.

Question (not gauntlet): Aren't there more poor Blacks because of a rigged social/economic system? If everybody had the same advantages here, the numbers would be different, obviously. Men don't have more upper-body strength because of better nutrition or because gyms keep women out, so I'm not sure about this analogy.

I don't have a problem with being seen as inherently physically weaker, it doesn't mean "inferior" anyway. We have other things we tend to do better, we're just as good, but not identical. I like being able to ask guys to to heavy lifting because they know it's easier for them. It would be another story if I'd grown up watching boys get better food and play outdoors while I was locked in a room mending socks or something.

Yes, but the specific issue being addressed here is not whether blacks are statistically more likely to be poor, but what using a word that denotes blackness as an insult tells us about our society.

Just as the specific issue with calling men "pussies" or "little girls" is not whether women are weaker overall than men are, but what using femininity as an insult tells us about our society.

Ah, thanks.  :)

Sure. :)

There's a part b to that, as well, which is the message our society sends to a boy who cries over a dead pet or because his feelings were hurt or because he fell down. "Don't be a pussy, crying is for girls, man up" etc.

That kind of language not only tells the boy that girls are lesser/weaker and that expressing his emotions is beneath him, but also informs him that his masculinity and identity are invalidated by expressing his emotions. That creates a really negative internal conflict, because he can't express himself without, in a social conditioning sense, betraying himself.



“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #598 on: August 15, 2012, 10:54:31 pm »
I'd have to see.  It looks pretty knotted up.

In fact, it looks like everything that's been explained to me in the last 2 days has been bullshit.

That's more than a little extreme, and comes across as a cop-out.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #599 on: August 15, 2012, 10:55:00 pm »
There's a part b to that, as well, which is the message our society sends to a boy who cries over a dead pet or because his feelings were hurt or because he fell down. "Don't be a pussy, crying is for girls, man up" etc.

That kind of language not only tells the boy that girls are lesser/weaker and that expressing his emotions is beneath him, but also informs him that his masculinity and identity are invalidated by expressing his emotions. That creates a really negative internal conflict, because he can't express himself without, in a social conditioning sense, betraying himself.

It's also the root of the po'bucker dilemma:  If you don't like women, you're a faggot.  If you do like women, you're a faggot.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.