LABELS - The Thread!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Cool. Still got my address?

You were on the Horrible Letters mailing list, so probably.  I'll have to dig out the file and see.

All it is is, "here, change your behavior so they won't think you're prey," without telling men not to treat us prey and enforcing it if necessary. It's not all that different than victim blaming to some extent, I think, because not displaying those behaviors, in some ways, excuses men who act like that because I didn't act the way I should have to ward that fucker off. "You didn't get in his face enough when he got grabby, that's why he did x to you."
At least, that's kind of how it's coming off to me.

Not at all.  What I'm saying is that there is only ONE person at fault - the creep - but that's no consolation for the girl who gets attacked.

You are ALLOWED to have that response. I have to work myself out of +20 years of "girls don't hit back!" and the reminents of a fairly crappy childhood. I'm still working on that.

You are allowed to have any response you deem appropriate.  Yes, I know that you're dealing with a shitload of conditioning, but you aren't "not allowed" to do SHIT.  You're a person, not a gender.

Oh, and a McDojo is better than nothing.  So is a boxing school, or even a class at the Y.  My personal advice is a kickboxing outfit.  Women don't tend to be punchers, due to body shape, but a hiker is going to kick through a brick wall and STILL slice this tomato (Ancient Ronco commercial joke, for you younguns).

[The Good Reverend Roger]

No, it doesn't make the outside world different, but validating my feelings makes responding easier. Otherwise, it's hard to shake the feeling that my response will be out of proportion. *shrug*

Yeah, people - not just women - are taught to think that way.

Survive first, worry about everything else later.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

No, it doesn't make the outside world different, but validating my feelings makes responding easier. Otherwise, it's hard to shake the feeling that my response will be out of proportion. *shrug*

FUCKING PHONE. HOUSE PHONE RANG AND BUMPED THE INTERNET JUST AS I POSTED.


Short form: violence doesn't come easy to women, since we're trained to not hit ever, never be aggressive. Men, especially older men gone to seed, are stronger and have a lot more weight. The terror there is if the guy is serious, there is nothing we can do to stop it coming. Nothing.

And then I had an example of tough as nails torch being so manipulated by shayne that she couldn't have fended him off with an army behind her.

This. And I am not a small person, but scared monkey doesn't calculate that very well.

FUCKING PHONE. HOUSE PHONE RANG AND BUMPED THE INTERNET JUST AS I POSTED.


Short form: violence doesn't come easy to women, since we're trained to not hit ever, never be aggressive. Men, especially older men gone to seed, are stronger and have a lot more weight. The terror there is if the guy is serious, there is nothing we can do to stop it coming. Nothing.

And then I had an example of tough as nails torch being so manipulated by shayne that she couldn't have fended him off with an army behind her.

That's something that can come up when they get you alone. If by some chance I got cornered in some isolated place by somebody I had reason to think would kill me and probably get away with it, it's another ballgame. In a bar, or any place where there's witnesses, we have an edge.

I was in a situation where it was ALL older men, remember. The side walk was empty (and this bar is tucked away off the main street, which is part of why I like it), bartender was an older dude, too, etc.

The bartender isn't going to let anything happen. Part of his job is not letting the Liquor Control Board or whatever it's called in your state shut the place down. If somebody who's been sitting there drinking starts harrassing a woman who just walked in, guess who's getting thrown out? I'd have bellied right up to the bar in that situation.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Cool. Still got my address?

You were on the Horrible Letters mailing list, so probably.  I'll have to dig out the file and see.

All it is is, "here, change your behavior so they won't think you're prey," without telling men not to treat us prey and enforcing it if necessary. It's not all that different than victim blaming to some extent, I think, because not displaying those behaviors, in some ways, excuses men who act like that because I didn't act the way I should have to ward that fucker off. "You didn't get in his face enough when he got grabby, that's why he did x to you."
At least, that's kind of how it's coming off to me.

Not at all.  What I'm saying is that there is only ONE person at fault - the creep - but that's no consolation for the girl who gets attacked.

You are ALLOWED to have that response. I have to work myself out of +20 years of "girls don't hit back!" and the reminents of a fairly crappy childhood. I'm still working on that.

You are allowed to have any response you deem appropriate.  Yes, I know that you're dealing with a shitload of conditioning, but you aren't "not allowed" to do SHIT.  You're a person, not a gender.

Oh, and a McDojo is better than nothing.  So is a boxing school, or even a class at the Y.  My personal advice is a kickboxing outfit.  Women don't tend to be punchers, due to body shape, but a hiker is going to kick through a brick wall and STILL slice this tomato (Ancient Ronco commercial joke, for you younguns).

SO THIN YOUR INLAWS WILL NEVER COME BACK! BUT WAIT! IF YOU CALL NOW YOU ALSO GET... 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

FUCKING PHONE. HOUSE PHONE RANG AND BUMPED THE INTERNET JUST AS I POSTED.


Short form: violence doesn't come easy to women, since we're trained to not hit ever, never be aggressive. Men, especially older men gone to seed, are stronger and have a lot more weight. The terror there is if the guy is serious, there is nothing we can do to stop it coming. Nothing.

And then I had an example of tough as nails torch being so manipulated by shayne that she couldn't have fended him off with an army behind her.

Torch is a sweetheart, but she has spent her entire life perfecting the art of the victim.  Victim of circumstances, victim of abuse, victim of her own screwed up decision-making processes.  It's not because she's a woman, because I know loads of guys who are the same way.  It's the person who knows how to make things worse, if you catch my drift.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Cool. Still got my address?

You were on the Horrible Letters mailing list, so probably.  I'll have to dig out the file and see.

All it is is, "here, change your behavior so they won't think you're prey," without telling men not to treat us prey and enforcing it if necessary. It's not all that different than victim blaming to some extent, I think, because not displaying those behaviors, in some ways, excuses men who act like that because I didn't act the way I should have to ward that fucker off. "You didn't get in his face enough when he got grabby, that's why he did x to you."
At least, that's kind of how it's coming off to me.

Not at all.  What I'm saying is that there is only ONE person at fault - the creep - but that's no consolation for the girl who gets attacked.

You are ALLOWED to have that response. I have to work myself out of +20 years of "girls don't hit back!" and the reminents of a fairly crappy childhood. I'm still working on that.

You are allowed to have any response you deem appropriate.  Yes, I know that you're dealing with a shitload of conditioning, but you aren't "not allowed" to do SHIT.  You're a person, not a gender.

Oh, and a McDojo is better than nothing.  So is a boxing school, or even a class at the Y.  My personal advice is a kickboxing outfit.  Women don't tend to be punchers, due to body shape, but a hiker is going to kick through a brick wall and STILL slice this tomato (Ancient Ronco commercial joke, for you younguns).

SO THIN YOUR INLAWS WILL NEVER COME BACK! BUT WAIT! IF YOU CALL NOW YOU ALSO GET... 

A MUZZLE VELOCITY SO HIGH, WE CAN'T SAY IT ON TEEVEE!  OUR CHAIN REACTIONS ARE 99% EFFICIENT, AND NO CIVILIANS LEFT UNCARBONIZED!  NOW HOW MUCH WOULD YOU PAY!

DON'T ANSWER YET!  YOU ALSO GET UNCLE JOE STALIN'S PATENTED "KULACK-BE-GONE!"

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The bartender isn't going to let anything happen. Part of his job is not letting the Liquor Control Board or whatever it's called in your state shut the place down. If somebody who's been sitting there drinking starts harrassing a woman who just walked in, guess who's getting thrown out? I'd have bellied right up to the bar in that situation.

Bartenders can be just as fucking stupid as anyone else.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

No, it doesn't make the outside world different, but validating my feelings makes responding easier. Otherwise, it's hard to shake the feeling that my response will be out of proportion. *shrug*

Out of proportion/overreaction is fine when you're getting used to something new. The pendulum was waaaaay of to one side, sometimes you have to pull it way to the other side to get it to end up in the middle. 

Knucks forward, Garbo. 

[Freeky]

Regarding garbo's first point in reply #149:

Oh holy shit.  That needs a thread all on it's own.

Even decent human beings buy the whole "You're a woman, and I don't understand why you're being so emotional, ergo you are overreacting."

Everybody does it and it is always bullshit. Everybody, even ourselves, which feeds into doubting our perceptions, and gives credence to victim blaming, and arrgh arrgh arrgh arrgh arrgh.

Also, Torch doesn't afraid to beat the shit out of people.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

The bartender isn't going to let anything happen. Part of his job is not letting the Liquor Control Board or whatever it's called in your state shut the place down. If somebody who's been sitting there drinking starts harrassing a woman who just walked in, guess who's getting thrown out? I'd have bellied right up to the bar in that situation.

Bartenders can be just as fucking stupid as anyone else.

Yeah, it's a possibility. But the odds are better with a guy who has a job to lose, and is less likely to be shitfaced.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

No, it doesn't make the outside world different, but validating my feelings makes responding easier. Otherwise, it's hard to shake the feeling that my response will be out of proportion. *shrug*

Out of proportion/overreaction is fine when you're getting used to something new. The pendulum was waaaaay of to one side, sometimes you have to pull it way to the other side to get it to end up in the middle. 

Knucks forward, Garbo. 

Maybe some people can't or won't do that.  I don't know.

Or maybe can't or won't yet.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Regarding garbo's first point in reply #149:

Oh holy shit.  That needs a thread all on it's own.

Even decent human beings buy the whole "You're a woman, and I don't understand why you're being so emotional, ergo you are overreacting."

Everybody does it and it is always bullshit. Everybody, even ourselves, which feeds into doubting our perceptions, and gives credence to victim blaming, and arrgh arrgh arrgh arrgh arrgh.

Also, Torch doesn't afraid to beat the shit out of people.

Yeah, but the wrong people.

And here's the thing:  Nobody has to be an asshole, but everyone should be CAPABLE of being an asshole if circumstances demand it.  I don't mean violence, necessarily, but the ability to break out of the "ladylike behavior" bullshit.  Or the "good citizen" bullshit.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating...Being a good citizen only works if you live in a good society.  We don't.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

We desperately need a thread split, but I can't figure out where.

Garbo, what post # should be the first one to be split?  We WERE talking about labels, but we're WAY off target now.

[Juana]

I know I'm me and not my gender (which is, ftr, not "woman" anyway because that word's not complex enough), and it's less the gender training I got anyway that's the problem, so much as the shitty childhood. Which I've been working on.

I'll check out the kickboxing.

No, it doesn't make the outside world different, but validating my feelings makes responding easier. Otherwise, it's hard to shake the feeling that my response will be out of proportion. *shrug*

Out of proportion/overreaction is fine when you're getting used to something new. The pendulum was waaaaay of to one side, sometimes you have to pull it way to the other side to get it to end up in the middle. 

Knucks forward, Garbo. 

Maybe some people can't or won't do that.  I don't know.

Or maybe can't or won't yet.

Yeah.

Regarding garbo's first point in reply #149:

Oh holy shit.  That needs a thread all on it's own.

Even decent human beings buy the whole "You're a woman, and I don't understand why you're being so emotional, ergo you are overreacting."

Everybody does it and it is always bullshit. Everybody, even ourselves, which feeds into doubting our perceptions, and gives credence to victim blaming, and arrgh arrgh arrgh arrgh arrgh.

Also, Torch doesn't afraid to beat the shit out of people.

Yeah, but the wrong people.

And here's the thing:  Nobody has to be an asshole, but everyone should be CAPABLE of being an asshole if circumstances demand it.  I don't mean violence, necessarily, but the ability to break out of the "ladylike behavior" bullshit.  Or the "good citizen" bullshit.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating...Being a good citizen only works if you live in a good society.  We don't.

I'm not good at the physical part in some situations, but Imma work on it.

It never quite worked and the only time I ever did the lady-like thing was when I was around him. Which, since I see him maybe once a year these days, isn't terribly relevant.

[Juana]

We desperately need a thread split, but I can't figure out where.

Garbo, what post # should be the first one to be split?  We WERE talking about labels, but we're WAY off target now.

Split it at my "this bar is full of people who bring out the inner scared monkey"?